Rock Evolution – The History of Rock & Roll - 1984 - (page 198)

[threespires]

@RobMCFC just to finish my 10 pence on why I think JD legitimately get the influential tag.

Lots of early goth bands would cite Joy Division as an influence both for lyrical tone and introspective subject matter as well as the 'haunted' sound.

Two of the biggest bands of the 90s Nirvana and Radiohead both on record as saying JD were a major influence.

Early impact was on the likes of Bauhaus, The Cure, Souixsie then later the likes of Chemical Brothers and Nine Inch Nails also say they played a big part in their sound. Plenty of knock off sounding bands too, such as Interpol, Editors. Could make a pretty good argument that shoegaze owes a lot to them via the likes of My Bloody Valentine.

Plenty of ambient artists took their cues from Martin Hannet's production techniques too.

Then I would argue most important of all they obviously spawned New Order who in turn are hugely influential in the whole of EDM.

I know that most of the stuff I've mentioned is not really in your wheelhouse but there's a lot.

 

[OB1]

The question is not wether you like them, (you clearly don’t) but wether they and the album are culturally significant in 1980 and worthy of discussion on a thread about the history of rock music in 1980. My point was I think they are and other than @threespires initial write up they had been totally ignored although the album appears in most lists of the best of 1980 and their lead singer died.
It’s back to a question you and I have discussed many times.
Is this thread predominantly about building a playlist of our favourites for the year (and at the moment dominated in numbers by a small number of participants) or is it about building a comprehensive history of music year by year. If it’s the first, we are doing that. If it’s the second, I don’t believe we are as well as we set out to do when we started the thread.
We can do both but the balance has to be better than it is at present. Just my views and if I’m the only one that feels like that I won’t raise it again.

It should be about both things but there are different points of view on playlists and I happen to think good years deserve lots of tracks but suggesting tracks and discussing the important events / bands etc are not mutually exclusive.

Where I have had control and added a lot of tracks, I have started to put them as a coda so people can listen or not without disturbing the main part of the list.

I am actually interested in hearing songs other people suggest that I don't know. I've already bought some albums on the back of that e.g. Ironhorse, Neu & Sniff n the Tears.

 

[OB1]

You hear music through your own ears and not through others. What is quality to you is not so for others. To level snobbery is a lazy criticism. Folk like different music. Most do not seek to dominate playlists with their favourites quite as much as you do mate. Reverting to five picks each might balance things up. Just a thought.

I disagree. And it is possible to see quality in things you don't like.

I've made views on playlists clear and reiterated a bit of them above but I am not going to go round in circles.

 

[homerdog]

wether they and the album are culturally significant in 1980 and worthy of discussion on a thread about the history of rock music in 1980.

They are; I have that album, but I bought it in the mid 80s to see what all the fuss was about and it's not really my cup of tea. In light of that, I'm not able to offer much to any discussion about them, just as you're probably not interested in having a discussion about the merits of AOR!

 

[Saddleworth2]

I disagree. And it is possible to see quality in things you don't like.

I've made views on playlists clear and reiterated a bit of them above but I am not going to go round in circles.

It is pointless 90% of participants on this thread restricting their picks to 5 and you doing as you see fit. Its either a free for all or restricted. I favour restricting because it brings some editorial discipline and makes the playlist listenable rather than taking hours and hours. At the end of the day its up to Rob and others to give their opinions. Ours are pretty set.

 

[RobMCFC]

The question is not wether you like them, (you clearly don’t) but wether they and the album are culturally significant in 1980 and worthy of discussion on a thread about the history of rock music in 1980. My point was I think they are and other than @threespires initial write up they had been totally ignored although the album appears in most lists of the best of 1980 and their lead singer died.
It’s back to a question you and I have discussed many times.
Is this thread predominantly about building a playlist of our favourites for the year (and at the moment dominated in numbers by a small number of participants) or is it about building a comprehensive history of music year by year. If it’s the first, we are doing that. If it’s the second, I don’t believe we are as well as we set out to do when we started the thread.
We can do both but the balance has to be better than it is at present. Just my views and if I’m the only one that feels like that I won’t raise it again.

It is absolutely right to discuss JD and their influence. I don’t like the miserablist vocals and scratchy sound, but I’m more than happy to have them discussed.

They may have been influential but it doesn’t mean they were any good :)

 

[RobMCFC]

It is pointless 90% of participants on this thread restricting their picks to 5 and you doing as you see fit. Its either a free for all or restricted. I favour restricting because it brings some editorial discipline and makes the playlist listenable rather than taking hours and hours. At the end of the day its up to Rob and others to give their opinions. Ours are pretty set.

I have said more than once that I favour people restricting nominations to 4. I’d rather people list 20 bands/songs that they enjoyed for a given year and then add one or two of them to the playlist by way of illustration.

This is the second year in succession that I have just given up listening to the playlist. It’s far too long and I have other music to be listening to as well.

 

[Saddleworth2]

They are; I have that album, but I bought it in the mid 80s to see what all the fuss was about and it's not really my cup of tea. In light of that, I'm not able to offer much to any discussion about them, just as you're probably not interested in having a discussion about the merits of AOR!

The merits of AOR are very often discussed on this thread mate ;-). The music simply isn't for me. I wouldn't put Joy Division top of my list either but I can recognise how influential they were and how interesting both their albums are.

 

[RobMCFC]

They are; I have that album, but I bought it in the mid 80s to see what all the fuss was about and it's not really my cup of tea. In light of that, I'm not able to offer much to any discussion about them, just as you're probably not interested in having a discussion about the merits of AOR!

That’s a refreshing viewpoint to read. There are certain artists that seem beyond criticism and when you finally listen to them, you wonder why so many people fall for the hype.

 

[threespires]

That’s a refreshing viewpoint to read. There are certain artists that seem beyond criticism and when you finally listen to them, you wonder why so many people fall for the hype.

For an artist that is beyond criticism you lot certainly like moaning about them ;-)

 

[Black&White&BlueMoon Town]

Oh I love radio over there. My game on long drives - we do like a fly-drive holiday - is to see how long we can go on a Classic Rock station before they play a track I don't have.

I easily know that answer, it simply isn't possible that something will get played that you don't have. I'd easily take that to the bank, so go on, take the money and run.

(which is why I do not listen to Classic Rock stations - they have nothing new for me)

 

[OB1]

I easily know that answer, it simply isn't possible that something will get played that you don't have. I'd easily take that to the bank, so go on, take the money and run.

(which is why I do not listen to Classic Rock stations - they have nothing new for me)

Oh it does happen every so often but then I go and buy the relevant record ;-)

 

[RobMCFC]

For an artist that is beyond criticism you lot certainly like moaning about them ;-)

I’ve never been afraid to criticise those artists who are beyond criticism: Joy Division, David Bowie, The Stone Roses near the top of a long list.

And I freely admit that criticism for the “great” Manchester bands is an attempt to counterbalance the OTT fawning that usually goes on :)

 

[BimboBob]

We are all agreed then. 10 picks by the nominee and 4, with explanation plus other tracks they like, and that's it.

As far as JD are concerned, part of a wave of influential bands from that era. It was new! It was exciting! It showed the world what could be done. Of course, for the main part, the world ran with it and fucked it up.

AOR is dull...neither proper rock nor experimental/ pushing boundaries. And Journey are the biggest wet blankets of them all.

In my opinion of course :)

 

[threespires]

I’ve never been afraid to criticise those artists who are beyond criticism: Joy Division, David Bowie, The Stone Roses near the top of a long list.

And I freely admit that criticism for the “great” Manchester bands is an attempt to counterbalance the OTT fawning that usually goes on :)

In two years time we'll be getting from JDs reincarnation what I consider to be one of the greatest dance tracks ever made (not Blue Monday) and if you can hand on heart say it didn't make you move your body I promise I'll never harangue you about JD/NO ever again !

 

[Saddleworth2]

We are all agreed then. 10 picks by the nominee and 4, with explanation plus other tracks they like, and that's it.

10 picks by the nominee and 4 or 5 by everyone else with explanations as to why they should be included. ‘plus other tracks’ will have us back to where we are just now.

 

[RobMCFC]

We are all agreed then. 10 picks by the nominee and 4, with explanation plus other tracks they like, and that's it.

As far as JD are concerned, part of a wave of influential bands from that era. It was new! It was exciting! It showed the world what could be done. Of course, for the main part, the world ran with it and fucked it up.

AOR is dull...neither proper rock nor experimental/ pushing boundaries. And Journey are the biggest wet blankets of them all.

In my opinion of course :)

Not all music enjoyment is pushing boundaries, though, is it?

Melody. Melody. Melody, the three most important ingredients. Technically, that’s one, but as it’s so important, I’d thought I’d mention it three times. Funny how lots of artists forget this key ingredient. And guitar solos, obviously, they are important too.

But if you are an indie mumbler, I’d argue that your influence is not a good one.

 

[RobMCFC]

In two years time we'll be getting from JDs reincarnation what I consider to be one of the greatest dance tracks ever made (not Blue Monday) and if you can hand on heart say it didn't make you move your body I promise I'll never harangue you about JD/NO ever again !

“Blue Monday” is OK. It’s got rhythm and a bit of melody. Bernard Sumner is one of the more palatable indie mumbles. He’s almost normal!

10 picks by the nominee and 4 or 5 by everyone else with explanations as to why they should be included. ‘plus other tracks’ will have us back to where we are just now.

See, I think that’s a bit much. Some songs are just great, or maybe one of your favourites, that they shouldn’t all need a justification. It is nice if a bit of context is provided though.

 

[BimboBob]

@RobMCFC just to finish my 10 pence on why I think JD legitimately get the influential tag.

Lots of early goth bands would cite Joy Division as an influence both for lyrical tone and introspective subject matter as well as the 'haunted' sound.

Two of the biggest bands of the 90s Nirvana and Radiohead both on record as saying JD were a major influence.

Early impact was on the likes of Bauhaus, The Cure, Souixsie then later the likes of Chemical Brothers and Nine Inch Nails also say they played a big part in their sound. Plenty of knock off sounding bands too, such as Interpol, Editors. Could make a pretty good argument that shoegaze owes a lot to them via the likes of My Bloody Valentine.

Plenty of ambient artists took their cues from Martin Hannet's production techniques too.

Then I would argue most important of all they obviously spawned New Order who in turn are hugely influential in the whole of EDM.

I know that most of the stuff I've mentioned is not really in your wheelhouse but there's a lot.

The Cure, Bauhaus, The Banshees all started around the same time as NO. In different parts of the country. I would imagine they all fed off each other.

 

[Out on blue 6]

In two years time we'll be getting from JDs reincarnation what I consider to be one of the greatest dance tracks ever made (not Blue Monday) and if you can hand on heart say it didn't make you move your body I promise I'll never harangue you about JD/NO ever again !

2 years time New Order finally shook off the shackles of JD and became that band. I suspect we're talking about the same song but Everything's Gone Green was a step forward although occasionally they would go back to a Joy Division sounding song like Ultraviolence

At the end of the day this is a good thread that hopefully won't get sidetracked with arguments about how many songs go on.
If someone is prepared to do the prep and put the time in they should get 10 everyone else 4.
My suspicion is as the years get into next century the playlist will shorten anyway