The Salford lad.
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Don’t you’ll get the placard waving purple haired bolts through the nose brigade upset .
Villa v Maccabi Tel Aviv - away fans banned | MTA confirm they will refuse any allocation for safety reasons (p26)
- Thread starter bluethrunthru
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The blue phantom
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Horrible bastards
Prestwich_Blue
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I think some of them have had bolts through their brains.
threespires
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One way of looking at this complicated situation is what would happen if this wasn't a football match, it was some other type of event with a public order and safety risk; say a march and counter protests. I think this is a reasonable way to look at it as you can safely assume that a material proportion of the away fans will indulge in racist chanting and there will be a response to this. Equally you could flip it round and say that a proportion of local racists will be looking for trouble and the away fans will respond in kind.
Either way, this would be unlikely (but not impossible) to result in a complete ban on both activities unless the Home Secretary authorised a ban. It's much more likely that a variety of restrictions would be placed on the protests, the protagonists would be separated and it would be policed very harshly.
But this is where the complexity and challenges come for WMP. The area around the ground is of an ethic mix that, even a subset of, people chanting Death to Arabs wouldn't in other circumstances be allowed to march there, they would be heavily policed AND rerouted somewhere less incendiary. But in this instance you can't simply reroute them. Similarly living in the surrounding areas there will be people who would undoubtedly seek to do reciprocal harm to the MTA fans. It doesn't matter that in both cases the antagonists might be a minority. Can you imagine the shit either way that WMP would get for carting away significant number of MTA fans in police wagons and likewise for doing the same to locals?
It strikes me that the level of human rights complexity involved is equivalent to the marching season in Ireland and that required an entire sub-framework and a standing Parades Commission to come up with a solution but WMP are being expected to sort this on the hoof. It's a no win situation for them that the Home Office should be supporting them with, not using it as a political football. Either way if this wasn't a football match there is no way you'd just say let both groups just have at it and we'll try and do our best to police it on the night.
Maybe the answer is to allow a smaller number of vetted MTA fans to attend and give them appropriate protection. So you have the symbolism that says law abiding citizens of whatever background deserve equal treatment but you defuse the level of public safety and disorder risk?
Either way, this would be unlikely (but not impossible) to result in a complete ban on both activities unless the Home Secretary authorised a ban. It's much more likely that a variety of restrictions would be placed on the protests, the protagonists would be separated and it would be policed very harshly.
But this is where the complexity and challenges come for WMP. The area around the ground is of an ethic mix that, even a subset of, people chanting Death to Arabs wouldn't in other circumstances be allowed to march there, they would be heavily policed AND rerouted somewhere less incendiary. But in this instance you can't simply reroute them. Similarly living in the surrounding areas there will be people who would undoubtedly seek to do reciprocal harm to the MTA fans. It doesn't matter that in both cases the antagonists might be a minority. Can you imagine the shit either way that WMP would get for carting away significant number of MTA fans in police wagons and likewise for doing the same to locals?
It strikes me that the level of human rights complexity involved is equivalent to the marching season in Ireland and that required an entire sub-framework and a standing Parades Commission to come up with a solution but WMP are being expected to sort this on the hoof. It's a no win situation for them that the Home Office should be supporting them with, not using it as a political football. Either way if this wasn't a football match there is no way you'd just say let both groups just have at it and we'll try and do our best to police it on the night.
Maybe the answer is to allow a smaller number of vetted MTA fans to attend and give them appropriate protection. So you have the symbolism that says law abiding citizens of whatever background deserve equal treatment but you defuse the level of public safety and disorder risk?
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The Fat el Hombre
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If there's any justice and fairness israel will be banned anyway, like they should have been at the start of the month if they weren't given special treatment as usual.
From the UN on the 23rd of September:
"UN experts call for suspension of Israel from international football amid unfolding genocide in occupied Palestine"
“Sports must reject the perception that it is business as usual,” they said. “Sporting bodies must not turn a blind eye to grave human rights violations, especially when their platforms are used to normalise injustices.” United Nations Human Rights
There was due to be a vote with countries expected to ban israel - "A majority of the UEFA (Union of European Football Associations) 20-member executive committee is expected to support any vote in favor of suspending Israeli teams from international play" ESPN
So what happened? The israel lobby did it's thing and threated people to suspend the vote - "The initial report in Israel Hayom set off a flurry of activity, with numerous Israeli and international diplomats, football association leaders and sports officials, whose identities will remain undisclosed for years, working on behalf of the Israel Football Association. Their efforts ensured that Israel's expulsion is not currently on UEFA's agenda. American officials were also involved, pressing UEFA leaders not to upset the status quo." Israel Hayom
The official line was that trumps 'peace plan' has delayed the decision - "Uefa puts Israel vote on hold after Donald Trump’s proposed peace plan" Guardian
Considering israel continues to violate said 'peace plan', shooting dead a ten year old child dead (who was playing football, funnily enough) for throwing stones yesterday BBC News, presumably we can expect the uefa vote to go ahead soon and for israel to rightly be banned?
Note that Gianni infantino said that " "No measures will be taken against Israel, FIFA cannot resolve geopolitical issues."" Twitter.
Reminder that russia were banned after 4 days. Israel has murdered tens of thousand more children than russia, is illegally occupying multiple countries, has bombed multiple countries, attacked all medical facilities and targetted medics, murdered over 230 journalists, cut off water and electricity to a civilian population, murdered hundreds of palestinian footballers etc etc etc
1961_vintage
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Whilst I find the motivation of the MP that promoted the petition questionable, I think that there are genuine concerns that what happened in Amsterdam (ie local anti-Israel people attacking Maccabi fans and then them responding in turn) could happen in Birmingham. In fact it is probably more likely now given the pile-on by the usual suspects. Banning away fans will prevent that happening, prevent the police getting caught in the middle of it and prevent the doubtless huge cost of policing it.
Big Joe Corrigan
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On both fucking sides.
Manc Born & Bred
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Just from the first paragraph- what are the UN expert in as it’s certainly not being impartial. There never was a genocide just like there was no famine or 14k babies dead in 48 hours. Does a genocidal army tell people to move, receive texts messages to move etc. does a genocidal army supply food water and electricity? If Israel did try to commit a genocide they weren’t very good. And from the same paragraph there wasn’t an occupation. Hamas have killed more of their own in the past week than IDF soldiers in two years. Maybe they should no be accused of genocide. Anyway keep up with the bandwagon, apartheid is now the buzz word to throw at Israel.
It was the other way round.
jimharri
Moderator
It's not. It's in Asia. Their clubs shouldn't be playing in European competition. Same with the Turkish sides located in the Asian part of the country. Let them play in the Asian equivalent of the three European club competitions.
It was both ways round.
Maccabi fans were ripping down Palestine flags, vandalising things and attacking Dutch and Muslim people. They were breaking up roadwork and construction barriers and using them as weapons to beat the shit out of people.
Maccabi fans were also attacked by Muslim gangs. There were videos all over social media of it. One gang wouldn’t let a Maccabi fan they’d thrown in the Canal out of the water and said they’d make him drown unless he said ‘Free Palestine’, which he did end up doing. Other videos of them being made to show their passports as they said they weren’t Israeli and then they were mugged of their phones, wallets and passports when it turned out they were.
PragueBlue
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Israel used to play in Asian tournaments until 1974 but were expelled due to political pressure and Arab/muslim teams refusing to play them.
The Salford lad.
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We’ll a team from just north of Pakistan knocked Celtic out of the UCL
jimharri
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Same thing. Any team not located in Europe shouldn't be playing in European club competitions. Re the Turkish national side, that's tricky. It's located on two continents.
jimharri
Moderator
Thanks for that. I was aware of that.
dronefromsector7G
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So is Kazakhstan to be fair. It allows them to choose to play in European competitions.
Before Turks conquered Anatolia it was never considered to be anything other than Mediterranean Europe. It was actually the Ancient Greeks who invented the idea of Europe, which included Anatolia as it was the main Greek landmass with Constantinople being the capital city of Europe.
Moscow and even Donetsk in Ukraine are further East than Israel and most of Turkey.
You could say that there’s not really such a thing as Europe and Asia as separate entities. Geographically, Europe is just a series of Penninsulas in North West Asia.
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jimharri
Moderator
That may well be true a few hundred years ago (I bow to your obvious greater knowledge on the subject), but we're talking about the present day. And in the present day, Israel is in Asia.
Prestwich_Blue
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The problem is that geographically they are but long before 2023, many of the other Asian countries didn't recognise them and wouldn't play them. That's why they're in UEFA because most European countries aren't a bunch of backward racists.