Villa v Maccabi Tel Aviv - away fans banned | MTA confirm they will refuse any allocation for safety reasons (p26)

[domalino]

Is there any other example of the British government intervening to overrule the police to allow a group of football fans to enter the country?

Let alone a group with a well documented violent record?

I can’t work out what the basis is for the PM to get involved in a policing decision - is he accusing West Mids police of making the decision based on their religion?

 

[domalino]

That's why they're in UEFA because most European countries aren't a bunch of backward racists.

Not sure that holds up tbh, racism and antisemitism is rampant across Eastern Europe, the balkans and Baltic.

Israel can’t be in the AFC because the other Middle Eastern states are and UEFA was the only alternative.

 

[mad4city]

The ban isn't in itself antisemitic but it is in response to antisemitism from the people who live in certain Birmingham communities. MTA fans are far from the worst. The antisemitic element in Birmingham hate those fans for where they come from, pure and simple. And yet again, our cowardly police forces are grovelling to the perpetrators while failing to protect the victims of race hate.

Your argument primarily hinges on the supposition that the "MTA fans are far from the worst".
That is a subjective opinion.
Maybe you are comfortable in that assessment but, I would have to strongly disagree with you (cf the list of nefarious activities in The Fat El Hombre's post).

But hey, suppose I am wrong on that point and you are right. Let's see where that takes us...
In that case, you develop your argument through a further supposition (unless you have evidence?) that effectively concludes "the ban itself isn't antisemitic... [but it kind of is because.there are antisemitic elements afoot in Birmingham].

1)The ban isn't antisemitic. You say so yourself.
2) The most vocal element of travelling MTA fans have reoatedly proven themselves to be every bit as racist (and provocatively so) as any element that might already be on the ground in Birmingham.
3) in that context, it's not cowardly to keep those elements apart, it's common sense.

Sometimes, the Israelis can be the bad guys too. It's not antisemitic to say that. (It's true of every nation).It's ridiculous and indicative of the weaponising of the term, antisemitism, that I should even have make that qualification.

For what it's worth, I think the Jewish community may be as well off not having the worst elements of those supporters all over the front pages. In my opinion, they hardly represent the best of Israel, let alone the Jewish people as a whole.

 

[jimharri]

The problem is that geographically they are but long before 2023, many of the other Asian countries didn't recognise them and wouldn't play them. That's why they're in UEFA because most European countries aren't a bunch of backward racists.

Yes that was explained several posts back. Which I replied to, stating that I was aware of the issue back in the 70s.

 

[franksinatra]

The ban isn't in itself antisemitic but it is in response to antisemitism from the people who live in certain Birmingham communities. MTA fans are far from the worst. The antisemitic element in Birmingham hate those fans for where they come from, pure and simple. And yet again, our cowardly police forces are grovelling to the perpetrators while failing to protect the victims of race hate.

I don’t think the police are grovelling to anybody, there role is to make a decision to ensure the safety of the general public and prevent disorder. The reality is, with a very depleted work force, to ensure this happens for one football match is difficult enough, let alone fans travelling for a period of 2/3/4 days and staying all over the city centre.

The easiest way to ensure this is to keep the two factions apart, and the simplest method is to ban away fans. It’s far from perfect but we live in a very imperfect world currently.

 

[BlueRockape]

I don't know if I am for or against.
Whether it is racist drven or not.
I do know I fear for the outcome if they are aloud to travel. : (

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I don’t think the police are grovelling to anybody, there role is to make a decision to ensure the safety of the general public and prevent disorder. The reality is, with a very depleted work force, to ensure this happens for one football match is difficult enough, let alone fans travelling for a period of 2/3/4 days and staying all over the city centre.

The easiest way to ensure this is to keep the two factions apart, and the simplest method is to ban away fans. It’s far from perfect but we live in a very imperfect world currently.

Nonsense. They're grovelling to a nasty, racist element in society, the same element that engineered the attack on Heaton Park Synagogue a couple of weeks ago. Funny how that seems to have been forgotten by some.

You can't accuse Israelis of racism (and there are outright racists on the Israeli right) and ignore the deeply racist elements in our own society.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Israel used to play in Asian tournaments until 1974 but were expelled due to political pressure and Arab/muslim teams refusing to play them.

Maybe they should stop being cunts (all of the above). Making them honourary Europeans is a strange way to resolve this. Especially if it presents difficulties to do so.

 

[Hamann Pineapple]

Surely this decision has been taken by the police to prevent a potential violent clash. Why has it become political ?

 

[Eebo]

I think it’s completely unnecessary and sends the wrong message. It appears that the fear is for the safety of the away fans.

What about other Jewish sports teams or Jewish fans who are based in the uk? Should they have to fear for their safety as well.

It’s the Isreal government doing harm, not the ordinary people. The level of hatred seems to be through the roof with some people

Nonsense, it’s due to the violence of the MTA ultras and to protect Brits from them.

 

[Eebo]

Surely this decision has been taken by the police to prevent a potential violent clash. Why has it become political ?

Yes exactly.

Protecting British Citizens against violent thugs is anti-Semitic if those racist thugs with a history of causing trouble happen to be Israeli according the usual apologists for violent Zionism.

It’s the same with saying you don’t like 15,000 children being killed in Gaza by the IDF - you will be accused of hating Jews and being anti-Semitic.

 

[Stiff Little Wingers]

Nonsense. They're grovelling to a nasty, racist element in society, the same element that engineered the attack on Heaton Park Synagogue a couple of weeks ago. Funny how that seems to have been forgotten by some.

You can't accuse Israelis of racism (and there are outright racists on the Israeli right) and ignore the deeply racist elements in our own society.

I have no idea of the risk assessments and evidence collected by the Police and other bodies so no one can truly know.
I dont pretend to
However, The evidence seems to show that a lot of the Maccabi fans are racist and hate Arabs. There will also be people (mostly Muslim I imagine) who will be out to get them. Many will hate Jews and many will also seek "revenge" for the ongoing atrocities in Gaza and West Bank. To my mind, undoubtedly there will be far right Tommy Robinson types turning up to "defend their Jewish brothers") - after all, he's gone to Israel just now.
There is also a large residential population around the Aston area who will be afraid.
The only conclusion I can draw is it is best to get ban away fans.

 

[Hamann Pineapple]

The problem is that geographically they are but long before 2023, many of the other Asian countries didn't recognise them and wouldn't play them. That's why they're in UEFA because most European countries aren't a bunch of backward racists.

I read somewhere that the concept of an Israel state originated in Manchester. I think the first Israeli Prime Minister was studying at Manchester Uni when he met Lord Balfour who was at the time an MP in East Manchester. Is this true ?

 

[mad4city]

Do we know that all their fans are out to cause trouble. Did the Young Guvnors and Cool Cats represent all City fans? Or the ICF all West Ham fans. Etc, etc.

Yes we kinda do know that enough of them are actual scumbags. They have a very vocal group who have previous in recent months for causing trouble which kinda points to it.
Any other argument is wholly disingenuous.

Fuck knows where you are going with your horrible-hooligan-light but nostalgia- heavy argument afterwards. Those lovable racists from Macabbi, is it?
Scumbags are scumbags, mate.
They come in every colour, from every religion and through every nationality.

If there's any justice and fairness israel will be banned anyway, like they should have been at the start of the month if they weren't given special treatment as usual.

From the UN on the 23rd of September:

"UN experts call for suspension of Israel from international football amid unfolding genocide in occupied Palestine"

“Sports must reject the perception that it is business as usual,” they said. “Sporting bodies must not turn a blind eye to grave human rights violations, especially when their platforms are used to normalise injustices.” United Nations Human Rights

There was due to be a vote with countries expected to ban israel - "A majority of the UEFA (Union of European Football Associations) 20-member executive committee is expected to support any vote in favor of suspending Israeli teams from international play" ESPN

So what happened? The israel lobby did it's thing and threated people to suspend the vote - "The initial report in Israel Hayom set off a flurry of activity, with numerous Israeli and international diplomats, football association leaders and sports officials, whose identities will remain undisclosed for years, working on behalf of the Israel Football Association. Their efforts ensured that Israel's expulsion is not currently on UEFA's agenda. American officials were also involved, pressing UEFA leaders not to upset the status quo." Israel Hayom

The official line was that trumps 'peace plan' has delayed the decision - "Uefa puts Israel vote on hold after Donald Trump’s proposed peace plan" Guardian

Considering israel continues to violate said 'peace plan', shooting dead a ten year old child dead (who was playing football, funnily enough) for throwing stones yesterday BBC News, presumably we can expect the uefa vote to go ahead soon and for israel to rightly be banned?

Note that Gianni infantino said that " "No measures will be taken against Israel, FIFA cannot resolve geopolitical issues."" Twitter.

Reminder that russia were banned after 4 days. Israel has murdered tens of thousand more children than russia, is illegally occupying multiple countries, has bombed multiple countries, attacked all medical facilities and targetted medics, murdered over 230 journalists, cut off water and electricity to a civilian population, murdered hundreds of palestinian footballers etc etc etc

It's impossible to argue with any of this. Israel has behaved in a disgraceful and abominable fashion and should be censured accordingly. If right was right, this wouldn't be an argument.

The problem is that geographically they are but long before 2023, many of the other Asian countries didn't recognise them and wouldn't play them. That's why they're in UEFA because most European countries aren't a bunch of backward racists.

Most members of UEFA aren't backward racists. We agree. That's true.
Also, only one member of UEFA has been an an apartheid state since well before October 7th and reoeatedly committed war crime after war crime afterwards upon defenceless people too.

Nonsense. They're grovelling to a nasty, racist element in society, the same element that engineered the attack on Heaton Park Synagogue a couple of weeks ago. Funny how that seems to have been forgotten by some.

You can't accuse Israelis of racism (and there are outright racists on the Israeli right) and ignore the deeply racist elements in our own society.

Heaton Park clearly hasn't been forgotten. That's not fair at all. Conflating that tragedy with this decision has no logical root other than in your own imagination.
The experienced authorities in Birmingham have decided MTV fans won't help their city's situation. I wasn't there when the decision was made. You weren't there either Anything on either of our parts is conjecture and supposition
My own supposition is that it is likely the Birmingham authority think a proven group of vocal racists wouldn't necessarily be a great cultural addition to the city of Birmingham - but hey, you could be right. It might also possibly because they are cowards.

The corollary of your second paragraph above is that we can't accuse non Israelis of racism and ignore the deeply racist elements in Israeli society.
Neither your statement nor its corollary make sense whatsoever.

PB, you're an intelligent man. One whose input on here I have often greatly appreciated. But, with respect, you're arguments are either extremely weak or simply not making any sense. It's not my place to tell you what to do. That said, I will be bold enough to suggest that on this particular ruling, I think you are choosing to die on a hill that might be way beneath you.

 

[Chak19]

If this is true, it makes this government look like an even bigger bunch of absolute bellends than they are, didn't hear and uproar from the opposition either, surely they're not all hypocritical wankers ?

 

[No One Understands]

The problem is that geographically they are but long before 2023, many of the other Asian countries didn't recognise them and wouldn't play them. That's why they're in UEFA because most European countries aren't a bunch of backward racists.

Interesting.
Are you suggesting that most Asian countries are a bunch of backward racists?

 

[lloydie]

Nonsense. They're grovelling to a nasty, racist element in society, the same element that engineered the attack on Heaton Park Synagogue a couple of weeks ago. Funny how that seems to have been forgotten by some.

You can't accuse Israelis of racism (and there are outright racists on the Israeli right) and ignore the deeply racist elements in our own society.

Thankfully the population of Birmingham are significantly less racist than the general population of Israel. Unfortunate that you can’t claim that distinction.

 

[M16 citeh]

Why?

There’s nothing wrong in believing that Jews have the right to a homeland where they can self determine and democratically vote for their own govt and laws. Looking back to how Jews were treated across Europe, North Africa and the Middle East from the early-1800s (probably centuries earlier in Europe) through to WW2, I completely understand why Zionism came about as an idea, why Jews believed in it and why it was enacted.

Zionism also encompasses that country being open for Muslims, Christians, atheists, Arabs, Europeans and anyone else who fancies living there, to live there, with the same rights as the rest of the population.

Extremism is different though, and shouldn’t be conflated with the idea of Zionism in its simple form. The extremists may well be Zionists, but anarchists aren’t the same as socialists, despite both being left-wing. Not all Zionists are extremist, fascist, idiots. Many Zionsists won’t believe in the idea of a ‘Greater Israel’, won’t agree with the appaling treatment of Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank, and many are left-wing or not political or not religious. There are Muslim, Christian and atheist Zionists who live in Israel and there are Zionists who’ve protested against the Israel govts actions and who haven’t and never will vote for Netanyahu.

Now, Maccabi Tel Aviv fans do have a reputation of being extreme Zionsists but there are many sets of fans around Europe who have extremist ideals as a core tenet of their hooligan firms, and nobody really ever pays any attention to them.

The argument for banning them for this game is purely based on their continued displays of hooliganism, the threat they pose to people in Birmingham as well as the threat that locals would pose towards them (as there will be many who are just regular Maccabi fans who couldn’t fight sleep and don’t want to cause trouble) who would come to attack the Maccabi fans. But I don’t particularly agree with it.

Now the idea that Israel sports teams should be banned in the basis that Russian teams have, is a more valid argument, than banning fans when they have been allowed to travel to other games since the Ajax debacle where their team hasn’t been banned. It’s not the fans that should be targeted around this issue, it’s UEFA and FIFA with regards to Israeli sports teams.

I’d have agreed if a ban of Israeli sports teams came in two years ago, but I don’t agree with Maccabi fans being banned from the Villa game while their team isn’t banned. Further ideas should be explored like busing them in-and-out where they can’t enter Birmingham other than at the turnstiles of Villa Park. This is even enacted when Burnley play Blackburn, so it can be bloody done with a set of fans arriving at an airport from abroad.

For a start I ain't reading all of that. Is Israel in Europe? No...
Are fans in Europe allowed to display political symbols? No. This lot literally support a military organisation that have bombed several countries in the last 2 years. They beat up people based on ethnicity and race. Why would anyone defend then?

 

[Blue and true]

The ban isn't in itself antisemitic but it is in response to antisemitism from the people who live in certain Birmingham communities. MTA fans are far from the worst. The antisemitic element in Birmingham hate those fans for where they come from, pure and simple. And yet again, our cowardly police forces are grovelling to the perpetrators while failing to protect the victims of race hate.

Ah yes, of course they are victims of race hate. Nothing to do with them behaving violently and calling for the death of Arab children when they visit other European cities.

I'll tell you what is race hate, breaking into a neighbouring territory and slaughtering ~70,000 people because they have the wrong shade of skin.

 

[city5189]

I'd say the decision to ban the maccabi fans was based purely on the location where the game is being held.
If this was played in say Newcastle they wouldn't be banned.
You're going to have a situation where thousands of local Muslims who have no interest in football coming out having a pop purely due to them being Jewish.
I wouldn't put maccabi in the top10 hooligans in Europe personally.