GornikDaze
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Might stick to Peppa Pig - purely for grandson entertaining haha
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The Album Review Club - Week #193 (page 1300) - East Side Story - Squeeze
- Thread starter RobMCFC
- Start date
Might stick to Peppa Pig - purely for grandson entertaining haha
mrbelfry
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There is a whole bunch of context I'm missing when listening to 3 Feet High and Rising by De La Soul. It's right to complain about the homework and it would be legitimate to take away points but it is also true that no piece of art exists in isolation - the context is important. And of course if i was more educated in this genre then the context wouldn't be homework it would just have been acquired by listening to music. Without the context I'm unsure if this is a brilliant piece of critique or just stupid. There is plenty of online commentary to suggest that this isn't stupid though.
You don't need context to understand that this is primarily an album about sex. You could argue that it's not sexy though and it's in this subversion that the line between genius and naffness is hard to pin down. It's clear that De la Soul were young when they made this album - as well as being about sex there's also lots of in jokes and poo talk. I'm unsure if it is charming or just stupid.
For clarity I know next to nothing about rap really but i do know that the writing is important and the writing is proper GCSE stuff - alliteration, metaphor, simile, rhyming schemes etc are all much more prevalent in rap than in rock or pop for instance. And there are normally significantly more words so you have to do a bit of work to understand the journey or message of the song. Jenifa Taught Me for example has a couple of the recurring ideas - Jenifa is a girls name but also refers to vagina's so that song is about a break up but also a realisation that there is plenty more fish in the sea (at least if I'm hearing it right). Jimmy's are penises and buddy is sex and there is likely lots of other word play going on that I'm missing the context on. I think poo is always poo though.
I've read a couple of things about this album that implies the "immaturity" of it is actually pointed commentary on the state of the rap game around this time. In context then this implies this is a much smarter and meta album than you might hear. It feels like party or lite rap until you get to something like De La Orgee and I can imagine many parents might have bought this album for their kids not knowing something like this is on it. It's clearly a stupid song BUT it may also be a critique - the stupidness is turned up to an extreme to make a point. It's certainly unlikely to be a reflection of their lives - although the album is about sex it's not about the usual boastful bravado - in one of the songs (maybe Buddy) they talk about their swatches rather than their rolexes. Take it Off and I Can Do Anything (Delacratic) may also be critiquing the scene rather than just being stupid. For reference I'm undecided but I am leaning towards the critique aspect - particular with the follow up album being called De La Soul is Dead - I think these are smart kids well capable of commentary. The commentary does fail on Ghetto Thang which does feel undercooked and trite in my opinion although again it does seem to be saying something about bravado etc.
After the early few listens I did wonder how this stacked up to it's contemporaries and in particular the vocal "flow" as it felt abit unmusical. It certainly doesn't have the same kind of energy as something like Paul's Boutique by the Beastie Boys or It Takes A Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back by Public Enemy but it is also less aggravating. The samples is where this shines though in comparison to those two offerings. Paul's Boutique is arguably more complex but 3 Feet High's samples are significantly more musical than that and Public Enemy's offering. After a few listens I was also hearing more musicality in the vocal - Buddy perhaps being the highlight particular with the guest mc's.
There was plenty to enjoy for me in most of the songs and even with my limited knowledge of the genre I can hear echos of this in other stuff. A Little Bit of Soap has a similar vocal vibe to the Salmon Dance by the Chemical Brother and Betty Boo made a good living ripping off Tread Water. I'm not sure if Eye Know was the first song to sample Steely Dan but that sample turns up a lot and the addition of Otis Redding whistling on top just makes this song a bop. At it's best the album is a head nodder with Change in Speak being a surprise and a good example of the musicality in the samples. The Magic Number, Say No Go, Me Myself and I and Eye Know are all big bangers which may be familiar but it's pretty much a head nod from start to finish. I would score this quite a bit lower if I did believe it is infantile - I believe the apparent immaturity is a consequence of these guys being young but also acts as a critique and in particular a comment on the braggadocio of their contemporaries. I warmed up to it and even though it's probably too long and could lose a couple of tracks it did charm me - in particular the quality and musicality of the sampling. 7 and a welcome encouragement to go and listen to Aja
You don't need context to understand that this is primarily an album about sex. You could argue that it's not sexy though and it's in this subversion that the line between genius and naffness is hard to pin down. It's clear that De la Soul were young when they made this album - as well as being about sex there's also lots of in jokes and poo talk. I'm unsure if it is charming or just stupid.
For clarity I know next to nothing about rap really but i do know that the writing is important and the writing is proper GCSE stuff - alliteration, metaphor, simile, rhyming schemes etc are all much more prevalent in rap than in rock or pop for instance. And there are normally significantly more words so you have to do a bit of work to understand the journey or message of the song. Jenifa Taught Me for example has a couple of the recurring ideas - Jenifa is a girls name but also refers to vagina's so that song is about a break up but also a realisation that there is plenty more fish in the sea (at least if I'm hearing it right). Jimmy's are penises and buddy is sex and there is likely lots of other word play going on that I'm missing the context on. I think poo is always poo though.
I've read a couple of things about this album that implies the "immaturity" of it is actually pointed commentary on the state of the rap game around this time. In context then this implies this is a much smarter and meta album than you might hear. It feels like party or lite rap until you get to something like De La Orgee and I can imagine many parents might have bought this album for their kids not knowing something like this is on it. It's clearly a stupid song BUT it may also be a critique - the stupidness is turned up to an extreme to make a point. It's certainly unlikely to be a reflection of their lives - although the album is about sex it's not about the usual boastful bravado - in one of the songs (maybe Buddy) they talk about their swatches rather than their rolexes. Take it Off and I Can Do Anything (Delacratic) may also be critiquing the scene rather than just being stupid. For reference I'm undecided but I am leaning towards the critique aspect - particular with the follow up album being called De La Soul is Dead - I think these are smart kids well capable of commentary. The commentary does fail on Ghetto Thang which does feel undercooked and trite in my opinion although again it does seem to be saying something about bravado etc.
After the early few listens I did wonder how this stacked up to it's contemporaries and in particular the vocal "flow" as it felt abit unmusical. It certainly doesn't have the same kind of energy as something like Paul's Boutique by the Beastie Boys or It Takes A Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back by Public Enemy but it is also less aggravating. The samples is where this shines though in comparison to those two offerings. Paul's Boutique is arguably more complex but 3 Feet High's samples are significantly more musical than that and Public Enemy's offering. After a few listens I was also hearing more musicality in the vocal - Buddy perhaps being the highlight particular with the guest mc's.
There was plenty to enjoy for me in most of the songs and even with my limited knowledge of the genre I can hear echos of this in other stuff. A Little Bit of Soap has a similar vocal vibe to the Salmon Dance by the Chemical Brother and Betty Boo made a good living ripping off Tread Water. I'm not sure if Eye Know was the first song to sample Steely Dan but that sample turns up a lot and the addition of Otis Redding whistling on top just makes this song a bop. At it's best the album is a head nodder with Change in Speak being a surprise and a good example of the musicality in the samples. The Magic Number, Say No Go, Me Myself and I and Eye Know are all big bangers which may be familiar but it's pretty much a head nod from start to finish. I would score this quite a bit lower if I did believe it is infantile - I believe the apparent immaturity is a consequence of these guys being young but also acts as a critique and in particular a comment on the braggadocio of their contemporaries. I warmed up to it and even though it's probably too long and could lose a couple of tracks it did charm me - in particular the quality and musicality of the sampling. 7 and a welcome encouragement to go and listen to Aja
threespires
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The whole question of what is or isn't music is interesting. Technology innovations have been moving music forward as an art form forever and a day. At what point do these innovations suddenly mean it's not music? The pedals on a piano create 'artificial' effects such as sustain. A Rhodes piano artificially opens up possibilities of sound creation that it is not exclusively the gift of the player it's inherent to the technology itself etc etc.
Ah but that's different you say because it's still someone manually 'working' the technology to create the sound and there is a performative element. Which is fine but is this and adjacent genres really that different? If musical ability resolves down to (a) a set of fine motor skills, (b) understanding of how an instrument works (c) either formal or intuitive understanding of music theory and (d) the creativity/musicality to bring all that together into something novel, then a skilled DJ or turntablist absolutely fits into that definition and will typically have significant improvisational skills to boot.
I think sometimes people don't necessarily realise some of the skills and level of musicality that is involved but there's some really interesting stuff on YT where you can see how talented some of these guys are. Obviously there's lots of slop around but that's true of 'conventional' music too.
You could then argue but they are not performing live when in the studio, that they are crafting it together layer by layer. But that's equally true of much conventional music which isn't recorded live but built track by track, segment by segment, bar by bar; often with significant amounts of post processing that the musician isn't directly involved in.
People say sampling is cheating but if the samples are (a) legally legitimate (b) used in creative ways to create something new then how is that any less creatively legitimate than utilising a well worn chord progression?
An interesting way of looking at it is comparison to the visual arts where the impact of technology has created a sort inverse trajectory. Originally visual art could only be a static medium created as a one time artifact to be experienced and analysed by people as essentially the same thing over and over again, people's response varies but it remains the same artifact. But then technology enabled new forms of visual art and installation art that introduced a transient performative element to the experience. Both forms of the art remain valid.
Conversely, until the introduction of recording technology, music was only ever a transient experience never exactly recreatable. Then technology allowed creation of 'static' musical artifacts as much akin to a painting as a live performance and it's fair to say that some music is sufficiently complex that it can never be fully reproduced live and there are also plenty of mainstream artists who choose to remain exclusively studio acts. Does that delegitimise them?
You can prefer particular media and particularly movements in the visual arts world but it doesn't mean what you don't like isn't art. I've little interest in impressionism either in form or intent but I can't say it's not painting and I don't think you can say this is not music. In this nomination you can have a discussion about the dominance of rhythm over melody (in most of it) but that doesn't stop it being music.
So I think you can legitimately say something is the antithesis of the music you prefer but it's not intellectually coherent to say it's the antithesis of music.
All that said it should never stop any of us having a quality rant when the opportunity arises; but if you are going to torpedo then do so with panache!
Ah but that's different you say because it's still someone manually 'working' the technology to create the sound and there is a performative element. Which is fine but is this and adjacent genres really that different? If musical ability resolves down to (a) a set of fine motor skills, (b) understanding of how an instrument works (c) either formal or intuitive understanding of music theory and (d) the creativity/musicality to bring all that together into something novel, then a skilled DJ or turntablist absolutely fits into that definition and will typically have significant improvisational skills to boot.
I think sometimes people don't necessarily realise some of the skills and level of musicality that is involved but there's some really interesting stuff on YT where you can see how talented some of these guys are. Obviously there's lots of slop around but that's true of 'conventional' music too.
You could then argue but they are not performing live when in the studio, that they are crafting it together layer by layer. But that's equally true of much conventional music which isn't recorded live but built track by track, segment by segment, bar by bar; often with significant amounts of post processing that the musician isn't directly involved in.
People say sampling is cheating but if the samples are (a) legally legitimate (b) used in creative ways to create something new then how is that any less creatively legitimate than utilising a well worn chord progression?
An interesting way of looking at it is comparison to the visual arts where the impact of technology has created a sort inverse trajectory. Originally visual art could only be a static medium created as a one time artifact to be experienced and analysed by people as essentially the same thing over and over again, people's response varies but it remains the same artifact. But then technology enabled new forms of visual art and installation art that introduced a transient performative element to the experience. Both forms of the art remain valid.
Conversely, until the introduction of recording technology, music was only ever a transient experience never exactly recreatable. Then technology allowed creation of 'static' musical artifacts as much akin to a painting as a live performance and it's fair to say that some music is sufficiently complex that it can never be fully reproduced live and there are also plenty of mainstream artists who choose to remain exclusively studio acts. Does that delegitimise them?
You can prefer particular media and particularly movements in the visual arts world but it doesn't mean what you don't like isn't art. I've little interest in impressionism either in form or intent but I can't say it's not painting and I don't think you can say this is not music. In this nomination you can have a discussion about the dominance of rhythm over melody (in most of it) but that doesn't stop it being music.
So I think you can legitimately say something is the antithesis of the music you prefer but it's not intellectually coherent to say it's the antithesis of music.
All that said it should never stop any of us having a quality rant when the opportunity arises; but if you are going to torpedo then do so with panache!
I think it may have been around the time of this album that I had a rather alcohol fuelled discussion/argument with my old man on a trip back home from Uni.
He being a huge jazz buff and also enjoying choral stuff was adamant that alot of this "modern rubbish" wasn't music and had no merit.
Thinking back now, I think John Thompson nailed it...NICE!
I argued that there were limited notes and that it was all about what you did with them, how you altered them, whether you cut and pasted, it still created something even if it wasnt to (his) taste.
I knew that this wasn't going to be to everyones taste but am pleased that it has produced a little bit of discussion which is wonderful and what this thread is all about.
He being a huge jazz buff and also enjoying choral stuff was adamant that alot of this "modern rubbish" wasn't music and had no merit.
Thinking back now, I think John Thompson nailed it...NICE!
I argued that there were limited notes and that it was all about what you did with them, how you altered them, whether you cut and pasted, it still created something even if it wasnt to (his) taste.
I knew that this wasn't going to be to everyones taste but am pleased that it has produced a little bit of discussion which is wonderful and what this thread is all about.
threespires
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Ok Boomer ;)
Do you not consider the rapping a performance element? Or the writing - it's prepared before hand so not "in the moment" but it's rare to have something recorded without some prep before hand
Point of order Mr Chairman... Rob is the school year below me so both he and I are the upper end of Gen X which as everyone knows can be mathematically proven to have the best taste in music :-)
threespires
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I think it may have been around the time of this album that I had a rather alcohol fuelled discussion/argument with my old man on a trip back home from Uni.
He being a huge jazz buff and also enjoying choral stuff was adamant that alot of this "modern rubbish" wasn't music and had no merit.
Thinking back now, I think John Thompson nailed it...NICE!
I argued that there were limited notes and that it was all about what you did with them, how you altered them, whether you cut and pasted, it still created something even if it wasnt to (his) taste.
I knew that this wasn't going to be to everyones taste but am pleased that it has produced a little bit of discussion which is wonderful and what this thread is all about.
The irony of that argument is think about it for a moment and jazz and hip hop have lots in common. The importance of improvisation, the reinterpretation of existing materials, the syncopation and polyrhythms, the use of call and response and the types of collaboration that takes place, before you even get into broader cultural stuff.
But wouldn't it be boring if the generations didn't clash in this way? and I suppose we all end becoming our parents at some point in time!
mrbelfry
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I would imagine that those who are less enamoured by this effort would highly value melody. Rap and hip hop etc has much more emphasis on rhythm and repetition with very little dynamics.
Like @threespires I also consider jazz and hip hop that have lots in common. They are both very aware of themselves and context is important - there is imo more interplay between the artists than in something like pop and rock. Both have sets of rules and standards (ie autumn leaves or the amen break) that you need to know to appreciate fully what's going on
Like @threespires I also consider jazz and hip hop that have lots in common. They are both very aware of themselves and context is important - there is imo more interplay between the artists than in something like pop and rock. Both have sets of rules and standards (ie autumn leaves or the amen break) that you need to know to appreciate fully what's going on
West Yorks Owl
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I've got 2 copies on vinyl of the 1989 release so it gets my thumbs up :)
threespires
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I've got 2 copies on vinyl of the 1989 release so it gets my thumbs up :)
If you feel inclined give it a score out of ten as I suspect yours will be one of the higher ones.
Btw - that virus removed video that you ran before the game was fantastic. Good luck with the reboot.
Saddleworth2
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That made me think about the music I love and dislike.I would imagine that those who are less enamoured by this effort would highly value melody. Rap and hip hop etc has much more emphasis on rhythm and repetition with very little dynamics.
Like @threespires I also consider jazz and hip hop that have lots in common. They are both very aware of themselves and context is important - there is imo more interplay between the artists than in something like pop and rock. Both have sets of rules and standards (ie autumn leaves or the amen break) that you need to know to appreciate fully what's going on
I guess the music I tend to be drawn to is:
- I love strong melody and harmony
- musical craftmanship and layered music
- Artistic ambition
- Emotional and intellectual depth
- musical innovation
threespires
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That made me think about the music I love and dislike.
I guess the music I tend to be drawn to is:
The album this week doesn't track against enough of the above.
- I love strong melody and harmony
- musical craftmanship and layered music
- Artistic ambition
- Emotional and intellectual depth
- musical innovation
I would respectfully argue that outside of the first of those bullets the others are there but for whatever reason you are not hearing them. I'll structure my eventual review along those bullet points and we'll see if I can persuade you a tiny bit ! :-) @mrbelfry has already spoken to some of them in his review too.
mrbelfry
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I would say 2, 3 and 5 scores highly for me with this album. But if it doesn't connect then it doesn't connect. If you don't appreciate the art of sampling though you may argue about some of the points but I'd suggest strongly it should at least score highly in the musical innovation department.That made me think about the music I love and dislike.
I guess the music I tend to be drawn to is:
The album this week doesn't track against enough of the above.
- I love strong melody and harmony
- musical craftmanship and layered music
- Artistic ambition
- Emotional and intellectual depth
- musical innovation
West Yorks Owl
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I'd give it a solid 8/10 m8, a lot of that is probably nostalgia kicking in as in 1989 I was 19 and into hip hop, acid house etc so it reminds me of my youth.If you feel inclined give it a score out of ten as I suspect yours will be one of the higher ones.
Btw - that virus removed video that you ran before the game was fantastic. Good luck with the reboot.
Say No Go (Say No Dope Mix) is still a track I love to listen to.
Thanks for the support regarding the reboot, despite the state of what he has left we have optimism :)
Saddleworth2
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Maybe innovation albeit I don’t know enough about that genre to comment.I would say 2, 3 and 5 scores highly for me with this album. But if it doesn't connect then it doesn't connect. If you don't appreciate the art of sampling though you may argue about some of the points but I'd suggest strongly it should at least score highly in the musical innovation department.
I will say a little about sampling soon.
Saddleworth2
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Maybe. Albeit I put that bullet first for a reason.I would respectfully argue that outside of the first of those bullets the others are there but for whatever reason you are not hearing them. I'll structure my eventual review along those bullet points and we'll see if I can persuade you a tiny bit ! :-) @mrbelfry has already spoken to some of them in his review too.
GoatersLeftShin
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I remember having this back in the day and taping it from Oldham Library. To be honest the main things I remember from this was the singles. I quite liked Say No Go and Eye Know at the time but I don't remember much else from the album.
It was definitely a bit different to other rap albums at the time and I (could be wrong) remember them getting kudos for the "new" samples and sounds. Basically they didn't use James Brown:)
If you listen to It Takes A Nation by Public Enemy this is laid back where is that is high octane and more aggressive (politically). Straight Outta Compton is straight up aggressive so again I think it highlights that at the time this was different. I think this maybe a "flower power" album for rap!
However listening to it today, it's aged badly. The singles are still the best parts of the album, but it really highlights how it completely leans on the brilliance of the samples. There is, ultimately, no getting away from this. Take away Peg from Eye Know and there's nothing there.
I do like rap music when it's done well. I can happily listen to lots of rap songs and there's a real energy behind the good tracks but I can't listen to an album of it. The words blend into one, musically it's a bit boring and there's little melody.
By the end of it I found myself audio-lly bored. I think I did the same as someone else and went over to Aja and the difference could not be more striking. Melodic, laid back, clever, interesting and a really nice sound. When you listen to that album, it couldn't be more different to this.
I am not opposed to sampling or scratching at all, it really takes an ear to pick it out and put them together. But if the hardest part of making an album is looking for new samples, it feels a bit...pointless.
I am glad I've revisited this and it's ALWAYS good to hear a different genre. We do tend towards guitar/rock albums so it's important to listen to something new. I just don't think this has aged well.
3/10 and 1 of those marks is for Steely Dan and 1 is for Hall and Oates :)
It was definitely a bit different to other rap albums at the time and I (could be wrong) remember them getting kudos for the "new" samples and sounds. Basically they didn't use James Brown:)
If you listen to It Takes A Nation by Public Enemy this is laid back where is that is high octane and more aggressive (politically). Straight Outta Compton is straight up aggressive so again I think it highlights that at the time this was different. I think this maybe a "flower power" album for rap!
However listening to it today, it's aged badly. The singles are still the best parts of the album, but it really highlights how it completely leans on the brilliance of the samples. There is, ultimately, no getting away from this. Take away Peg from Eye Know and there's nothing there.
I do like rap music when it's done well. I can happily listen to lots of rap songs and there's a real energy behind the good tracks but I can't listen to an album of it. The words blend into one, musically it's a bit boring and there's little melody.
By the end of it I found myself audio-lly bored. I think I did the same as someone else and went over to Aja and the difference could not be more striking. Melodic, laid back, clever, interesting and a really nice sound. When you listen to that album, it couldn't be more different to this.
I am not opposed to sampling or scratching at all, it really takes an ear to pick it out and put them together. But if the hardest part of making an album is looking for new samples, it feels a bit...pointless.
I am glad I've revisited this and it's ALWAYS good to hear a different genre. We do tend towards guitar/rock albums so it's important to listen to something new. I just don't think this has aged well.
3/10 and 1 of those marks is for Steely Dan and 1 is for Hall and Oates :)
Boo or Boo-urns
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Yep, I followed rap all the way back from the early 80's, after the daisy age of rap discovered Steely Dan, Radiohead, etc and stopped listening during the Gangsta rap phase of the early 90's bar Dre & Snoop.I think I did the same as someone else and went over to Aja and the difference could not be more striking.
Then I followed hip-hop into the golden age of 94 - 96 with Nas, Jeru the Damaja, Guru & Jazzmatazz then progressing into trip-hop with Tricky, Massive Attack & Portishead etc.
Black&White&BlueMoon Town
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Good to see you score this higher than last week, as even I saw this coming. That will likely keep me warm with maybe a few chuckles as I start to listen this weekend for the very first time after simply not having the time this week. ;-)I warmed up to it and even though it's probably too long and could lose a couple of tracks it did charm me - in particular the quality and musicality of the sampling. 7 and a welcome encouragement to go and listen to Aja
It will be after a 1984 revisit, however.
journolud
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Just found out, three hours too late that Midlake were signing copies of their new album at Waterloo records in Austin today. I am if course in Austin and planned a visit to Waterloo before I leave. Should have made it todayI've also got the new Midlake album on rotation and it's very good. In fact, with it's groove, I would say that that is a very good comparison point to this week's selection.
journolud
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On the plus side, we are here to see the Oh Hellos with our son at Stubbs BBQ. Somehow, without trying we've been ushered into the VIP area by a staff member who must have thought we looked a bit lost and gormless and was then much taken by our English accents. Southern hospitality at it's finest.