I'm With Stupid
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The Labour Government
- Thread starter SkyBlueFlux
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hampshireblue
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It's not. It's a demonstration of how lower taxes can make your country appear rich on paper, per capita, if you have a very small population, and basically run a bunch of massive corporations' profits through the books in your country. Large countries can't do that, because large countries are the ones actually generating those profits in the first place, and tax havens like Ireland are 'getting rich' (not that it's translated to the wages of ordinary people) by effectively allowing companies to avoid taxes on wealth created in those bigger markets. It's just absolute bollocks that a country of 60 or 70 million can get rich by following the model of some microstate or tax haven.
And I thought it was only me!I mean technically you're not wrong, but the majority of that list is some combination of micro states/city states, tax havens, and countries with massive oil wealth in a small population. If you remove those countries, the UK is more like 11th or 12th. Even if you don't, it doesn't necessarily mean the population are seeing the benefits of that GDP per capita anyway. A perfect example is Ireland, who apparently have $107k GDP per capita to the UK's $54k, yet if you look at median wages of the population, are actually about $3k a year lower (PPP) or $230 a month higher (nominal) depending on which set of stats you believe. Either way, that massive GDP per capita earned by running a tax dodging scheme for huge corporations doesn't seem to have trickled down to the wages of ordinary workers, certainly not without an equally huge increase in living costs.
One thing I would say is that, if I remember rightly, in about 2014/15, the UK, Netherlands and Germany all had roughly the same GDP per capita. Then something happened in 2016 that allowed those two to quickly pull away from the UK over the next 9 years.
we live in times of constant scorn and negative rhetoric, nothing will please. the media will make sure of that.
It’s been like that for the last 15 years.
It’s nothing new.
BlueHammer85
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It’s been like that for the last 15 years.
It’s nothing new.
I can agree with that, however the dial has been well and truly turned up a notch since Labour have come to power - most notably from the tech giants platforming constant anti migrant and racist rhetoric , this is something new.
threespires
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Stellar performance from Mahmood yesterday. Be interesting whether the Labour MPs vote for it with many of them representing high immigration areas and therefore, understandably, fearful for their jobs. Mahmood has taken the legs from beneath Reform with that speech and the liklihood is that both Labour and the Tories will benefit with a drift back to the 'main' parties. Having watched Power Ranger Zach (Green Leader) and The Wicked Witch of the South (Reform councillor) shouting at each other (again) on Newsnight I think the rise of the populists has peaked and the next election will, once again, be fought by the relatively sane and centre parties of Labour and the Conservatives.
It's possible but far from certain that will be the case. I suspect the dent it makes in Reforms numbers will be limited because we're at the point where people aren't planning to vote for Reform based on the policy options available to them and I include even immigration in that. My fear is that introducing the policies Mahmood is talking about will do little to nothing to impact the real issues people are having, at which point the populists will continue to flourish.
Unless and until Labour focus on a narrative that convinces people they are on their side and are not in the business of managed decline for the vast majority then they will struggle. They've made exactly the same mistake the Tories previously made, they allowed themselves to be dragged into a fight they cannot win instead of defining the battle in other terms. I understand why because trying to fix the mess we're in against the forces that are ranged against them seems impossible but they need to do something to signal they have the stomach for the fight or they will become increasingly irrelevant.
hilts
Well-Known Member
Sitting govts have always and will continue to receive criticism. The job they have is too important not to comment on. I would agree however that there are cynics and cap doffers in this world.we live in times of constant scorn and negative rhetoric, nothing will please. the media will make sure of that.
How experience of life can make someone a doff capper escapes me though.
OK remove the Cayman Islands. How much better does it look now? We're still lagging behind most of our major competitors, and some.
The other thing is, why don't we try having a competitively low business taxes and incentives, like say Ireland? Their GDP per capita is 2x ours. Ireland FFS.
Why do you think Google (Alphabet Inc.), Apple, Meta (Facebook), Microsoft, Intel, Pfizer, Airbnb, PayPal, LinkedIn, eBay, Twitter / X Corp., IBM, Hewlett Packard Enterprise (HPE), Medtronic, Johnson & Johnson, Dell Technologies, Oracle, Cisco, Salesforce, TikTok (ByteDance), HubSpot, Stryker, Boston Scientific, Abbott Laboratories, Accenture, Qualcomm, Adobe, VMware (Broadcom), Workday, Electronic Arts - and countless others - are all HQ'd in Ireland? All employing people, paying decent salaries, paying corporation tax and hugely stimulating their economy.
Don't you think that would be good for our economy? This is just one example of how LOWER TAXES makes everyone better off. And higher taxes makes everyone worse off.
Others have responded to this already, but I will point a couple of things out.
The first country that has a comparable or higher population than the UK is the US, which has been the leading economy for a century. The next on the list is Germany. Dependent on where you put the cut off (40m, 50m), it's then canada or the UK. So we're third or fourth based upon medium to large nation states. So all in all, the list means very little
There's a reason statisticians use statistical neighbours when carrying out comparisons.
Chippy_boy
Well-Known Member
The median wages in Ireland vs the UK is a fair point. But how much people earn is only half the story.I mean technically you're not wrong, but the majority of that list is some combination of micro states/city states, tax havens, and countries with massive oil wealth in a small population. If you remove those countries, the UK is more like 11th or 12th. Even if you don't, it doesn't necessarily mean the population are seeing the benefits of that GDP per capita anyway. A perfect example is Ireland, who apparently have $107k GDP per capita to the UK's $54k, yet if you look at median wages of the population, are actually about $3k a year lower (PPP) or $230 a month higher (nominal) depending on which set of stats you believe. Either way, that massive GDP per capita earned by running a tax dodging scheme for huge corporations doesn't seem to have trickled down to the wages of ordinary workers, certainly not without an equally huge increase in living costs.
One thing I would say is that, if I remember rightly, in about 2014/15, the UK, Netherlands and Germany all had roughly the same GDP per capita. Then something happened in 2016 that allowed those two to quickly pull away from the UK over the next 9 years.
The result of their much higher GDP per capita is that they have the ability to either have lower taxes - making everyone better off - or spend the money on better infrastructure and public services - that benefits everybody.
One of the reasons people are so unhappy in the UK with higher taxes is that we get so very little back for it. Our roads and general infrastructure is falling to bits. Our pension sysem is one of the least generous amongst developed countries, our health service is woeful compared to other countries, in terms of facilities, waiting times and critically, clinical outcomes. The reality is we have high taxes already AND shit public services.
This problem has not come about overnight of course. It's been brewing a long time. It started with Blair and Brown inflating the size of the state and funding that with progressively higher taxation, and broadly the same policies have persisted - made worse in fact - by successive Conservative (in name only) governments.
We need a reset. If we are to be wealthy ever again, we need a much better growth agenda, pro-business, anti-woke, lower tax environment. Carry on as we are and we will just see progressive decline further and futher.
Chippy_boy
Well-Known Member
If being in denial makes you feel better, carry on by all means. You can tell yourself that Starmer and co are doing a marvellous job. Until you get your P45.Others have responded to this already, but I will point a couple of things out.
The first country that has a comparable or higher population than the UK is the US, which has been the leading economy for a century. The next on the list is Germany. Dependent on where you put the cut off (40m, 50m), it's then canada or the UK. So we're third or fourth based upon medium to large nation states. So all in all, the list means very little
There's a reason statisticians use statistical neighbours when carrying out comparisons.
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Stellar performance from Mahmood yesterday. Be interesting whether the Labour MPs vote for it with many of them representing high immigration areas and therefore, understandably, fearful for their jobs. Mahmood has taken the legs from beneath Reform with that speech and the liklihood is that both Labour and the Tories will benefit with a drift back to the 'main' parties. Having watched Power Ranger Zach (Green Leader) and The Wicked Witch of the South (Reform councillor) shouting at each other (again) on Newsnight I think the rise of the populists has peaked and the next election will, once again, be fought by the relatively sane and centre parties of Labour and the Conservatives.
They may well benefit, but if it was me I'd rather lose than govern as a cheap imitation of Nigel Farage.
It would be like being desperate for a derby ticket, and finally getting one but only if you wear a rag shirt and and sing why dont City fuck off home.
Tories are closer to their natural habitat (although I didnt expect them to be described as relatively sane any time soon) but if I was a true labour voter I'd be pretty disgusted with the party right now.
I look forward to you telling me you told me so when we live in this low-tax utopia you describeIf it makes you feel better. You're kidding yourself, BTW.
Chippy_boy
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Since when was wanting a sound immigration policy incompatible with Labour values?I was a true labour voter I'd be pretty disgusted with the party right now.
hampshireblue
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I'm not sure what she was upto about 10secs before the interview started. It looked like she was having a quick snort.Cunningham really was awful last night, wasn't she? A hair's breadth a couple of times from indisputable racism.
Not sure Polanski offered an alternative plan.
No sign of Conservative/LibDems/SNP on the show for their opinion.
This morning, Zia Yusuf was repeating the same points when he was interviewed on BBC Breakfast, although Nugent did try pulling him up for avoiding the question. Yusuf was awfully sneery.
No sign of Conservative/LibDems/SNP on the show for their opinion.
Then a BBC hack (Zeffman, maybe?) actually saying what you put above - that a number of Labour MPs don't like the idea, but are aware that their constituents do want something done.
Without making a comment on the policy, that seems to me to be how MPs need to think.
hampshireblue
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Now stop coming on here with counter-facts. ;-)
BlueHammer85
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Isn’t it interesting how quiet the reform voters are on Labours proposals on immigration, they just can’t accept labour achieving anything.
blueparrot
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It used to be have a sound, fair and compassionate one, no loonger it seems as they have decided appease the reform voter instead of confronting them for what they are.Since when was wanting a sound immigration policy incompatible with Labour values?
Where in my response have I referred to Starmer's performance? I pointed out that your list was useless. That's it.If being in denial makes you feel better, carry on by all means. You can tell yourself that Starmer and co are doing a marvellous job. Until you get your P45.
Chippy_boy
Well-Known Member
I refer you to my previous answer. You're kidding yourself trying to pretend that we are anything other than falling catastrophically behind in terms of the country's wealth and the standard of living of its citizens. This "country X doesn't count" or "metric Y is inappropriate" is just nonsense, a smokescreen to deflect from the inescapable fact: We are on a steady decline and unless we change course drastically, it's only going to get worse and worse.Where in my response have I referred to Starmer's performance? I pointed out that your list was useless. That's it.
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They just need to go a bit further to the right, I'm sure it'll work next time. I can feel it.
Next week's will be more interesting, this obviously won't take into account the Mahmood's big plan.
I expect it will change nothing, but it will be quite good to see how much/little Labour doing what reform voters "want" actually changes voting intention.
What a load of shit.
tiny obscure examples blown out of proportion, the same tactics MAGA uses.
It's pretty clear at this point that user has gone headfirst down the alt-right rabbithole and can't see the entrance anymore. His posts are justcliched RW talking points stitched together with expletives, rarely having much to do with the topic at hand.
He's probably just best left to his own devices in a corner and ignored, it's not like the posts are adding anything to the discussion, but it's something we're going to see happen more and more as MAGA money and tactics keeps getting pumped into this country.