We've sorted this. We both agree that Netanyahu, Hamas, Israel and Palestine all need to be brought before the courts and face judgement for their attrocities. i.e killing of innocents. That's fair isn't it?
Bondi terror attack
- Thread starter cheekybids
- Start date
Yes it is.
What is needed is action by the international community to ensure that this happens. Until then, it is just words, and zero consequence because of US involvement (IMO).
west didsblue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 2 Oct 2011
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All the senior Hamas leadership who were the architects of 7/10 are dead including Yahyah Sinwar, Ismael Haniyeh, Mohammed Deif and Marwan Issa. Each death was widely reported. It’s impossible to say whether all senior Hamas are dead but they’ve certainly lost their most well known leaders.
Now that I 100% agree with! I'm broadly pro Israeli for now(bet you guessed) but I do not want to see a winner in this, I want to see a compromise where both sides are winners and losers and accept that is how it should be. And you are right, now, in relative peace is the time to do it. But they won't will they, they never do.
My last post of the night also. Thanks for the excellent debate and apologies (genuinely) if I have lost my temper but it is an emotive subject.
From my point of view I'd ask why Hamas did not surrender and why many on the Palestinian side did not demand that they surrender and release the hostages. Surely if saving innocent Palestinian lives was the aim then that should have been the focus? As far as I know no Palestinian supporter on these boards championed surrender to save innocent lives but apparently they were all appalled at October 7th. Weird.
I get that but surely that is modern warfare? When October 7th kicked off most people thought we were in for a Stalingrad type war where each side would fight man on man in each building. The expectation was that each side would lose thousands. The reality is that Israel decided to fight a war where the deaths are predominately Palestinian. Is that fair? Should the Israelis have fought a war where more of them die? What would you have done? Would 65,000 Israeli deaths have made it better for you? Is that where we are at, 65,000 deaths each and we are all happy?
From my point of view I'd ask why Hamas did not surrender and why many on the Palestinian side did not demand that they surrender and release the hostages. Surely if saving innocent Palestinian lives was the aim then that should have been the focus? As far as I know no Palestinian supporter on these boards championed surrender to save innocent lives but apparently they were all appalled at October 7th. Weird.
I want ZERO death, on either side. I want people to be treated as if they matter. I want people treated equally regardless of faith, colour, or historic ties. I want war criminals tried and convicted on both sides, and terrorists the same, though I cannot grasp why one side is considered a terrorist and another a soldier.
This is not war. Human Rights Watch, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, Doctors Without Borders, Amnesty International, and the Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention all describe the situation as a genocide, and there remains an international warrant for war-crimes against Netanyahu and his IDF commander.
The Palestinian death-toll is now 86,082 - I looked at the revised figures last night. Unofficial estimates are more than 100,000 because of the scale of bodies remaining under the rubble, and the scale of death has been significantly weighted towards Palestinian loss for decades - well before October 7th, which is very commonly fixated upon by those who continue to support Israel in the face of overwhelming evidence. October 7th 2023 DID NOT BEGIN THIS CONFLICT. It was a horrible event for the innocent people of Israel - a grotesque attack - but that is NOT different than that experienced constantly by Gazans. It feels different, no doubt, if you have historic, religious, or familial links to Israel. It feels different too to those who have familial, historical, or religious links to Gaza or Palestine when they see their people being slain by weapons supplied and funded by the west.
Are you asking for Ukraine to surrender? They are also an occupied land under threat of deadly force.
I grew up in the 70s at the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland. Can you imagine the occupied territory of Derry being utterly levelled because of a terrorist bombing on the mainland? Of course not.
What is clear is that attacks like Bondi reinforce divisions. We see it here, we will see it in rising antisemitism across the globe, we have now seen it in pigs heads being lay on graves in the Islamic cemeteries of Sydney, and we see it in our press, in ignorant comments about 'Islamists'. This attack has done NOTHING for world peace. October 7th did nothing for world peace. Trump and Netanyahu do NOTHING for world peace. The continued bombing of Gaza does nothing for world peace. We need PROPER statespeople to stand strong, try and convict warmongers, and diplomatically resolve this without favour, in a relentless pursuit of a permanent settlement.
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Is that a Yes then?
Droll!
LangleyBlue1970
Well-Known Member
Just seen the speech from the parents of the little girl who got killed, Matilda. Jesus fucking Christ that is absolutely terrible to listen to them. Those poor people.
‘Remember her name’.
‘Remember her name’.
The loss of a child in such circumstances must be unbearable. As a father of four, I cannot begin to contemplate that level of grief.
johnny crossan
Well-Known Member
at the Adelaide Oval yesterday
Good post.
My 'problem' is with Hamas being seen by many as 'freedom fighters'.
From AI on the Internet.
Hamas's foundational ideology, official statements, and actions indicate a desire to kill Jews and achieve the complete destruction of Israel.
That's pretty much a text book description of Antisemitism (racism) isn't it? And surely, if people justify and openly support Hamas then they themselves must be antisemitic?
i.e
If the Ku Klux Klan had the same ideology as Hamas about a particular group would you accept someone saying "They are freedom fighters not racists"? You would call them out for talking bollocks surely.
My stance is this.
Can you criticise Israel without being antisemitic? Yes
Can you criticise Palestine without being anti Islam? Yes
Can you support or justify Hamas or any Jewish group that want the total destruction of the other without being antisemitic or anti arab/islam? No
We had the same debates about Northern Ireland.
Loyalists described Sinn Fein as terrorists.
Republicans described them as freedom fighters.
To me, it starts with occupation. Stop the occupation and you end the excuses and you can begin to work towards peace.
The IDF commit daily atrocity but are not seen as terrorists. Why is that? Because they carry out their horror under the orders of a democracy? What do Hamas do?
There will no doubt be extremists within Palestine. There are extremists within Israel.
When I was 18, my Jewish pal, the son of a dentist in South Manchester, simply told me that he hated all Arabs. I had no understanding of the conflict, but I knew racism.
I agree with you that either side wanting the destruction of the innocent is absolutely wrong.
Religious extremism is a scourge, wherever it is found.
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hilts
Well-Known Member
I truly believe most people on this forum are at this exact point, only sensitivity bias makes it appear sometimes that they are not.
Unfortunately the outside world is a different story.
I feel and hope we are getting there.
dronefromsector7G
Well-Known Member
4 days after Bondi Beach, Australian police conduct dramatic operation as intel suggests possible new plot
Police intercepted two vehicles in a Sydney suburb based on "information received that a violent act was possibly being planned."
www.cbsnews.com
Prestwich_Blue
Well-Known Member
That's generally a very sensible post but I've got to take some issue with the bit in bold. What, precisely, is "the occupation"? Because you can define it (as a minimum) as the post-1967 occupation of the West Bank, or (at the extreme) the presence of a Jewish state in the area. Gaza wasn't l occupied" as such, bar the border crossings being controlled (but you'd expect the two countries involved to closely control their borders with an area run by a terror group).
It's a rhetorical question by the way, as your view will be different to someone else's so whatever you say isn't a definitive answer. Here's a report of the deal that Ehud Olmert supposedly offered, that involved some minor adjustments to the 1967 border: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g0dv7rxxvo. But that was refused.
A bit like Ukraine, where unless Putin is toppled and a more reasonable government emerges, Ukraine is probably going to have to swallow giving up some land where the majority of the population is Russian-leaning.
Yep. Virtually everyone I know and on this forum thinks the only answer is a two state solution. Which is reasonable. I'm pointing out, rather too forcibly perhaps, that Hamas, with their aim of the total destruction of Israel and seemingly Jews anywhere, are not freedom fighters to be admired but a vile right wing nationalist militia who believe that killing their particular version of "invaders" is legitimate. Most of us believe that vile right wing nationalist with murderous intent should not be legitimised. That applies to Hamas too, no difference, vile fuckers with vile beliefs. Israel and Palestine both need to grow up, compromise and agree borders.
It is a personal definition, but when a country's soldiers are present in another country, and direct the movement and behaviour of the people of that country, under threat of violence, then that country is, IMO, occupied.
There has been so much 'western' influence in the area, and so much propaganda about what soldiers are doing, compounded by the exclusion of western journalists from the region, that it is difficult to separate truth. It is generally accepted though that Israel still maintains direct control over Gaza's air and maritime space, six of Gaza's seven land crossings, and a no-go buffer zone within the territory.
Under such control, by an 'enemy' that is killing thousands per year (based on UN figures), allegedly even shooting children in the head as they queue for aid (Doctors Without Borders), there will be retaliation, and it is a retaliation that cannot be made against the overwhelming might of the Israeli army, so it is directed against civilians by terrorists.
I made the point about Ukraine because feelings run high when discussing Israel and Palestine. There are some within this thread who support Israel, but also Ukraine, and for me, in the face of my comments about occupation, their reasoning is flawed. The international community needs to be very clear that the occupation of Ukraine is unacceptable, and apply significant diplomatic and economic pressure against Russia. The common wedge in the door is Trump, and US interest, oft said to be based on the 'lobbying' of US politicians.
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