Bondi terror attack

robbieh said:
I think the West has disrupted the lives of Arabs and Muslims far more than the reverse

We still play cricket, go to church, sing Christmas carols, watch Downtown Abbey/Coronation street, have a king, support City, etc etc

Baghdad, Tehran, Damascus, Beirut have all suffered huge loss of life in the last 40 years.
Most of it caused by the West meddling in the area due to oil, religion.
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Yes, the Ayatollah, Saddam and Assad wouldn’t have murdered hundreds of thousands of their own without the meddling West.
 
M18CTID said:
Islamic extremists most certainly pose a threat but Muslims in general going about their daily business - like the vast majority of people on this planet - do not. And in terms of numbers, the latter far outweigh the former.
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In terms of threat, the former far outweigh the latter.
 
I'm With Stupid said:
Until the formation of Israel and the subsequent wars, antisemitism was largely a European, Christian-led thing. Not that Jews as a religious minority weren't discriminated against, and there weren't pockets of explicit antisemitism in certain places, but by the standards of the time, they were arguably treated far better in the Islamic world than in Europe. For the most part, Islam wasn't preaching against Jews in the same way that Christianity was at the time. Then the Christian west basically established a new country, resulting in a bunch of wars, and everything changed. Add to this various Islamist revolutions in the Arab world, and you've got the perfect recipe for the Muslim world now being the world leaders in antisemitism.
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Israel has bent over backwards to live in peace with its neighbours. The Arabs at first, and now the terrorists have refused to work with them.
The 2 state solution has been offered 6 times and refused. Israel is not to blame for this in any way.
 
Pancake Arse said:
Israel has bent over backwards to live in peace with its neighbours. The Arabs at first, and now the terrorists have refused to work with them.
The 2 state solution has been offered 6 times and refused. Israel is not to blame for this in any way.
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I had no idea whether this was right or wrong but a quick search and AI actually points out that both sides have rejected a 2 state solution at various points down the years so it's not all one way:

Both Palestinian and Israeli leaders and groups have historically rejected specific two-state solution proposals at various times, often due to disagreements over borders, the status of Jerusalem, settlements, and refugee return, as well as a fundamental rejection of the other side's right to statehood.

Palestinian Rejections
Palestinian leadership and the wider Arab world have rejected several key proposals, viewing them as inadequate, violating the principle of self-determination, or requiring unacceptable compromises.
Key instances include:
  • 1937 Peel Commission Plan: The Arab Higher Committee and other Arab leaders rejected this British proposal to partition Mandate Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state, arguing it violated the rights of the Arab majority who owned most of the land.
  • 1947 UN Partition Plan (UN Resolution 181): The Arab states and Palestinian leaders rejected the UN's plan to divide the territory into a Jewish and an Arab state with an international Jerusalem, leading to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.
  • 2000 Camp David Summit: PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat rejected the peace proposal offered by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and U.S. President Bill Clinton. Disagreements centered on the extent of Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank, the status of East Jerusalem and its holy sites, and the "right of return" for Palestinian refugees.
  • 2008 Olmert Proposal: Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas rejected a proposal from Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that included significant territorial concessions and land swaps. Abbas stated the gaps were too wide and requested a written copy of the map, which was not provided.
  • Hamas: The group, which controls Gaza, has a charter that has historically called for Israel's destruction and rejects any negotiated two-state solution, although some political leaders have at times indicated a willingness to accept a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders under strict conditions.

Israeli Rejections
Israel has also rejected certain proposals and its current government has explicitly opposed a two-state solution.
Key instances include:
  • 1967 Arab League Khartoum Resolution: Following the Six-Day War, Arab states declared the "Three No's" (no peace, no recognition, no negotiations) with Israel, which Israel viewed as a rejection of peace. However, Israel has also been accused of rejecting the "land for peace" principle of UN Resolution 242 through continued settlement expansion in occupied territories.
  • Arab Peace Initiative (2002): Proposed by Saudi Arabia and endorsed by the Arab League, this initiative offered full normalization with Israel in exchange for a full withdrawal from occupied territories and a just solution for refugees. Israel largely ignored the proposal.
  • Netanyahu Government: Current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly and emphatically rejected the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state, asserting that Israel must maintain full security control over all territory west of the Jordan River. In July 2024, the Israeli Knesset passed a resolution that formally rejected the establishment of a Palestinian state.
 
Pancake Arse said:
Israel has bent over backwards to live in peace with its neighbours. The Arabs at first, and now the terrorists have refused to work with them.
The 2 state solution has been offered 6 times and refused. Israel is not to blame for this in any way.
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Unfortunately you don't know your history. The deals were always unfavorable to the Palestinians. Not surprising as they were written by Israel and the West.
And there has been no attempt recently at any solution as you'd know if you listened to Netanyahu and his ministers. Greater Israel is the plan and for an important section of the political class in Israel always has been
 
Humbling the stories of people sacrificing their own safety to try and stop this, to try and save the lives of total strangers.

Focus should be on them, make sure they are celebrated and remembered. Reuven Morrison, Ahmed al Ahmed, Boris and Sofia Gurman. Probably others too we don't know yet.

Hopefully it can help remind us that there's more people like them in the World than there is those two cowards.
 
robbieh said:
Unfortunately you don't know your history. The deals were always unfavorable to the Palestinians. Not surprising as they were written by Israel and the West.
And there has been no attempt recently at any solution as you'd know if you listened to Netanyahu and his ministers. Greater Israel is the plan and for an important section of the political class in Israel always has been
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Only because they wanted everything. They have been offered viable deals and refused them all.
 
oldius said:
I think you must understand motive. This is especially important where there is a 'cause' likely to be followed by many others. We can build evidence, charge, try, prosecute and sentence as harshly as we wish, but if the cause is real and justified in the eyes of followers, we will be doing the same thing over and over again, just as we did with Ireland.

I don't wish death on anyone, but the names I have mentioned come close. Why? Because they are, effectively, hate preachers wreaking havoc on the world. They build division for their own gain, and act with impunity because they are well funded by major players. We can have as many people speaking out about Trump and Netanyahu as we wish, but until such time as prosecutions for treason or war-crimes are made, they will go on and on. I believe the issue of US support for Israel to be the leading threat to western civilisation because it allows the latter to slaughter thousands and thousands of people each year, safe in the bosom of US support that no individual nation is able to stand up to. It will also be a major factor in the US desire to dismantle NATO and the EU.
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And Hamas? Would you be happy to put Hamas in court for war crimes? What about the Jew haters in Iran? Hezbollah? Houti? Are we going to get all of them in court for war crimes? Or just Trump and Netanyahu?
 
robbieh said:
Unfortunately you don't know your history. The deals were always unfavorable to the Palestinians. Not surprising as they were written by Israel and the West.
And there has been no attempt recently at any solution as you'd know if you listened to Netanyahu and his ministers. Greater Israel is the plan and for an important section of the political class in Israel always has been
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Greater Israel is all it's ever been about. Israeli administration after Israeli administration authorising the illegal seizure of land in the West Bank, with innumerable Palestinians killed. That's been going on for generations, before their genocide began. And if people can't see that they have eyes on the surrounding Arab states, they're blind. Or just don't give a fuck. I'd lean towards the latter.

Regardless, innocent people being killed, including a poor fucking child, is down to evil; and that comes in all colours and guises. I only hope the coward that survived knows he has achieved nothing, and the rest of his existence will be misery. Hate never wins.
 
M18CTID said:
I had no idea whether this was right or wrong but a quick search and AI actually points out that both sides have rejected a 2 state solution at various points down the years so it's not all one way:

Both Palestinian and Israeli leaders and groups have historically rejected specific two-state solution proposals at various times, often due to disagreements over borders, the status of Jerusalem, settlements, and refugee return, as well as a fundamental rejection of the other side's right to statehood.

Palestinian Rejections
Palestinian leadership and the wider Arab world have rejected several key proposals, viewing them as inadequate, violating the principle of self-determination, or requiring unacceptable compromises.
Key instances include:
  • 1937 Peel Commission Plan: The Arab Higher Committee and other Arab leaders rejected this British proposal to partition Mandate Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state, arguing it violated the rights of the Arab majority who owned most of the land.
  • 1947 UN Partition Plan (UN Resolution 181): The Arab states and Palestinian leaders rejected the UN's plan to divide the territory into a Jewish and an Arab state with an international Jerusalem, leading to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.
  • 2000 Camp David Summit: PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat rejected the peace proposal offered by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and U.S. President Bill Clinton. Disagreements centered on the extent of Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank, the status of East Jerusalem and its holy sites, and the "right of return" for Palestinian refugees.
  • 2008 Olmert Proposal: Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas rejected a proposal from Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that included significant territorial concessions and land swaps. Abbas stated the gaps were too wide and requested a written copy of the map, which was not provided.
  • Hamas: The group, which controls Gaza, has a charter that has historically called for Israel's destruction and rejects any negotiated two-state solution, although some political leaders have at times indicated a willingness to accept a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders under strict conditions.

Israeli Rejections
Israel has also rejected certain proposals and its current government has explicitly opposed a two-state solution.
Key instances include:
  • 1967 Arab League Khartoum Resolution: Following the Six-Day War, Arab states declared the "Three No's" (no peace, no recognition, no negotiations) with Israel, which Israel viewed as a rejection of peace. However, Israel has also been accused of rejecting the "land for peace" principle of UN Resolution 242 through continued settlement expansion in occupied territories.
  • Arab Peace Initiative (2002): Proposed by Saudi Arabia and endorsed by the Arab League, this initiative offered full normalization with Israel in exchange for a full withdrawal from occupied territories and a just solution for refugees. Israel largely ignored the proposal.
  • Netanyahu Government: Current Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has repeatedly and emphatically rejected the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state, asserting that Israel must maintain full security control over all territory west of the Jordan River. In July 2024, the Israeli Knesset passed a resolution that formally rejected the establishment of a Palestinian state.
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It's never going to end is it. Having said that, I think that Northern Ireland was somewhat solved by two women (one from either side) who basically said enough is enough. So maybe they both need women to take the lead and end this nonsense.
 
Palerider said:
And Hamas? Would you be happy to put Hamas in court for war crimes? What about the Jew haters in Iran? Hezbollah? Houti? Are we going to get all of them in court for war crimes? Or just Trump and Netanyahu?
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If anyone has committed war crimes then they should be tried and convicted. Hating someone is not a war crime. The International Court already has a warrant for Netanyahu:

On 21 November 2024, following an investigation of war crimes and crimes against humanity, the International Criminal Court (ICC) issued arrest warrants for two senior Israeli officials, Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, and Yoav Gallant, the former Minister of Defense of Israel
 
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johnnytapia said:
In terms of threat, the former far outweigh the latter.
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Sorry, are you saying here that the majority of people who follow Islam are radical extremists, or that ordinary people who follow Islam are simply collateral damage in the war against extremism?
 
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