Henry Nowak murder

Ban-jani said:
It’s a known fact that Henry, an 18 year old now dead by the way, told them multiple times he couldn’t breath as he’d been stabbed. The officers took a false accusation of racism as more serious and will now have to face the consequences for it and they’ll deserve everything they get. I’ve seen the body cam footage and I’d get banned for saying what I really think.

In regards to “the right wing” talking about this, well what the fuck do you expect? Taking accusations of racism as gospel and as the most important and serious thing in any situation is what’s landed us here. It’s that mindset that’s potentially (I say potentially as we don’t know if he’d have survived with immediate medical support) cost Henry’s life, ruined the lives of his family and friends and will push many more people to think differently to you.

Rather than blaming the right wing for talking about this, how about looking inwardly at the way you think and how some of that thinking has caused this incident?
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The right wing aren't talking about it-they are deliberately inflaming it -yet again-they only seek to cause hate and division for their own benefit-it serves no other purpose, because there are processes to follow-not the court of social media.

It doesn't matter what I think led to this-I can use my experience to infer things but not the full picture.
The police did not kill Henry, the coroner said his injuries were too severe to survive.
Do you think after the incident the officers just fucked off home? Most people are utterly clueless as to what would happen after something like this.

Do the right wing ever offer solutions alongside their shit stirring outrage?

I have watched the footage and I do have questions-but so will the IOPC/PSD and senior officers-but once again I will reiterate that officers have to justify the decision to arrest based on law and necessity, moreover, they must justify their decision to use force-handcuffs, and record those decisions-in accordance to law and policy-because not everyone is handcuffed (as it was in my day on the streets).

Officers in my force received 1 first aid refresher a year-do you think that necessarily makes them experts in this area?

Do you understand just how inexperienced frontline officers are nowadays? I have raised this, on here, as a huge risk. You cannot simply run a service into the ground and erode pay and conditions so badly that only kids can afford to join-and they make up the majority of response shifts-often its kids managing kids. Most officers avoid the frontline and get away from it as quickly as possible-because of shifts but also the hugely stressful environment dealing with anything and everything thrown at them every day-knowing that that brings huge risk to their own well being and career if it goes wrong-and you never know when its going to wrong, and never having the time to deal with things properly.

How many occupations face that level of scrutiny? You cannot recruit the best candidates if you offer wages akin to working in a fast food outlet. Now I'm not saying these officers were inexperienced-but its v likely they were.

I see the names of the officers have made been public-do you think that benefits anyone? Again, red meat to the mob and further endangering frontline officers.

I made numerous mistakes in my service-most will stay with me forever. I also witnessed what decades in the job did to friends and colleagues-physically and mentally. The pile on serves no purpose whatsoever-let the processes already in place be carried out.

I will also say that these tragic instances are v rare, but they do happen-some of the things I was involved in people would judge me-but I'd say, you weren't there, or when those things happened to other people, I'd think, 'but for the grace of God'....and I would struggle to deal with some of the things that I was involved in had social media been so hateful and quick to pass judgement as it is now.
 
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balotellishaircut said:
For me this is a terrible sentence, 21 yrs for killing that lad is pathetic, should of been 35 - 40 years, the callousness of phoning the Police and claiming racism, when nothing of the sort occurred, the lies upon lies from the perpetrators family, haven’t heard owt but I hope his mother and brother serve time too.
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I was mistaken last night when I commented on this-but the sentence is 21 years before parole can be even looked at.

But you make an important point-and one which the IOPC will investigate-the sequence of events from the call handler taking the call, feeding that information to the response officers and their decisions from there-but it is abundantly clear that had the offender not possessed a knife and not stabbed the victim and had not along with others pursued a course of conduct to lie to every officer none of this would've happened.
 
gingerprince said:
I read thru all the posts before deciding to view the BBC released footage. Personally, I think it's positive to release the footage. What I cannot
understand from your post above is that you seem to be implying that people need to fully understand the incident from all aspects and in particular the officers involved and that's best by waiting for the IOPC investigation to be completed. However, you yourself are then highlighting points in a way seemingly to only to support the officers? You state "it was dark" & "it would not have been obvious" [im presuming the multiple stabbings], to the officers. Others could use your own words and simply say that "it would also not have been obvious" [to the officers attending], that the person on the ground was either A, the perpetrator or B, had been in anyway Racially motivated....However the person on the ground was immediately arrested and handcuffed......?
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Ok-but I was quoting the remarks made by the Judge in summing up-because that is a factual context.

The footage does not include calls to police, information relayed to attending officers, reports made to the officers at the scene-all that led to a decision to treat the victim as the suspect-so he wasn't 'immediately arrested'-all important context which none of us have-other than again the Judge reporting a tissue of lies from the offender.

But all of that will be investigated-which is a process that the public must have faith in.
 
bert38 said:
The right wing aren't talking about it-they are deliberately inflaming it -yet again-they only seek to cause hate and division for their own benefit-it serves no other purpose, because there are processes to follow-not the court of social media.

It doesn't matter what I think led to this-I can use my experience to infer things but not the full picture.
The police did not kill Henry, the coroner said his injuries were too severe to survive.
Do you think after the incident the officers just fucked off home? Most people are utterly clueless as to what would happen after something like this.

Do the right wing ever offer solutions alongside their shit stirring outrage?

I have watched the footage and I do have questions-but so will the IOPC/PSD and senior officers-but once again I will reiterate that officers have to justify the decision to arrest based on law and necessity, moreover, they must justify their decision to use force-handcuffs, and record those decisions-in accordance to law and policy-because not everyone is handcuffed (as it was in my day on the streets).

Officers in my force received 1 first aid refresher a year-do you think that necessarily makes them experts in this area?

Do you understand just how inexperienced frontline officers are nowadays? I have raised this, on here, as a huge risk. You cannot simply run a service into the ground and erode pay and conditions so badly that only kids can afford to join-and they make up the majority of response shifts-often its kids managing kids. Most officers avoid the frontline and get away from it as quickly as possible-because of shifts but also the hugely stressful environment dealing with anything and everything thrown at them every day-knowing that that brings huge risk to their own well being and career if it goes wrong-and you never know when its going to wrong, and never having the time to deal with things properly.

How many occupations face that level of scrutiny? You cannot recruit the best candidates if you offer wages akin to working in a fast food outlet. Now I'm not saying these officers were inexperienced-but its v likely they were.

I see the names of the officers have made been public-do you think that benefits anyone? Again, red meat to the mob and further endangering frontline officers.

I made numerous mistakes in my service-most will stay with me forever. I also witnessed what decades in the job did to friends and colleagues-physically and mentally. The pile on serves no purpose whatsoever-let the processes already in place be carried out.
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I know it's difficult mate but you have to think about what was running through those officers heads. Of course the right are going to take advantage and of course the left are going to deflect but that has no relevance here.

It's absolutely correct to question this because it's not just a mistake. If this had happened in reverse to the Sikh then we just know that the commentary and narrative would be far different. That is part and parcel of an important problem that has to be addressed in Policing because everyone must be treated the same.

The Police indeed should sit in the middle but in this instance they absolutely didn't. We know this because it doesn't matter whether he'd actually been racist or not. Arresting somebody comes second to somebody potentially dying in the street and the Police didn't get that wrong, they wilfully chose to ignore it. That's not a mistake, it's negligence.

Now would Nowak had died anyway? Who knows, but the Police certainly 100% should have done more and they didn't because they chose not to establish the facts. I think we know that reason is they just assumed a racist incident had occurred and the blinkers were put on to entirely focus on that.

It's just shocking for the family, and the fact that the geezer only got 21 years given the aggravating factors is just an absolute disgrace. In the US he would be facing the death penalty and his extended family who covered up for him and lied on his behalf would be getting life too.
 
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bert38 said:
The right wing aren't talking about it-they are deliberately inflaming it -yet again-they only seek to cause hate and division for their own benefit-it serves no other purpose, because there are processes to follow-not the court of social media.

It doesn't matter what I think led to this-I can use my experience to infer things but not the full picture.
The police did not kill Henry, the coroner said his injuries were too severe to survive.
Do you think after the incident the officers just fucked off home? Most people are utterly clueless as to what would happen after something like this.

Do the right wing ever offer solutions alongside their shit stirring outrage?

I have watched the footage and I do have questions-but so will the IOPC/PSD and senior officers-but once again I will reiterate that officers have to justify the decision to arrest based on law and necessity, moreover, they must justify their decision to use force-handcuffs, and record those decisions-in accordance to law and policy-because not everyone is handcuffed (as it was in my day on the streets).

Officers in my force received 1 first aid refresher a year-do you think that necessarily makes them experts in this area?

Do you understand just how inexperienced frontline officers are nowadays? I have raised this, on here, as a huge risk. You cannot simply run a service into the ground and erode pay and conditions so badly that only kids can afford to join-and they make up the majority of response shifts-often its kids managing kids. Most officers avoid the frontline and get away from it as quickly as possible-because of shifts but also the hugely stressful environment dealing with anything and everything thrown at them every day-knowing that that brings huge risk to their own well being and career if it goes wrong-and you never know when its going to wrong, and never having the time to deal with things properly.

How many occupations face that level of scrutiny? You cannot recruit the best candidates if you offer wages akin to working in a fast food outlet. Now I'm not saying these officers were inexperienced-but its v likely they were.

I see the names of the officers have made been public-do you think that benefits anyone? Again, red meat to the mob and further endangering frontline officers.

I made numerous mistakes in my service-most will stay with me forever. I also witnessed what decades in the job did to friends and colleagues-physically and mentally. The pile on serves no purpose whatsoever-let the processes already in place be carried out.

I will also say that these tragic instances are v rare, but they do happen-some of the things I was involved in people would judge me-but I'd say, you weren't there, or when those things happened to other people, I'd think, 'but for the grace of God'....and I would struggle to deal with some of the things that I was involved in had social media been so hateful and quick to pass judgement as it is now.
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I'm not sure why you are having a go at the right. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask whether colour of skin played any part in this young man dying in chains. It seems that the left only turn up when the victim is non white and the right only turn up when the victim is white. Both are equally wrong but it is fair to question whether the reaction to this young man's death is dependent on skin colour and your own prejudices.
 
We've got Guardiola said:
I know it's difficult mate but you have to think about what was running through those officers heads. Of course the right are going to take advantage and of course the left are going to deflect but that has no relevance here.

It's absolutely correct to question this because it's not just a mistake. If this had happened in reverse to the Sikh then we just know that the commentary and narrative would be far different. That is part and parcel of an important problem that has to be addressed in Polcing because everyone must be treated the same.

The Police indeed should sit in the middle but in this instance they absolutely didn't. We know this because it doesn't matter whether he'd actually been racist or not. Arresting somebody comes second to somebody potentially dying in the street and the Police didn't get that wrong, they wilfully chose to ignore it. That's not a mistake, it's negligence.

Now would Nowak had died anyway? Who knows, but the Police certainly 100% should have done more and they didn't because they chose not to establish the facts. I think we know that reason is they just assumed a racist incident had occurred and the blinkers were put on to entirely focus on that.

It's just shocking for the family, and the fact that the geezer only got 21 years given the aggravating factors is just an absolute disgrace. In the US he would be facing the death penalty and his extended family who covered up for him and lied on his behalf would be getting life too.
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I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've put-but I will add firstly that its a minimum of 21 years. And it was the coroner who said that Henry's injuries were so severe that he would have succumbed to those injuries irrespective of anything.

You make perfectly valid points but we do not know the full facts-we are all, myself included, making a series of assumptions based on incomplete evidence-how would I have reacted? I don't know-the arresting officer may have thought, right lets get him arrested and out of here and then we can come back and sort this out and get to the bottom of it-which is what happens every day in policing-you almost have to pick a side.

But his and his colleagues mindset and thinking will be investigated in great depth-it may be that unconscious bias played a role-indeed, quite often when things go wrong it only takes one bad decision early on and the rest of the decisions are made on that basis-each compounding the previous one. Police are and should be accountable-but the lynch mob mentality of social media and now Farage ('cold hard rage') is really unhelpful but I respect all the points you make.
 
bert38 said:
Ok-but I was quoting the remarks made by the Judge in summing up-because that is a factual context.

The footage does not include calls to police, information relayed to attending officers, reports made to the officers at the scene-all that led to a decision to treat the victim as the suspect-so he wasn't 'immediately arrested'-all important context which none of us have-other than again the Judge reporting a tissue of lies from the offender.

But all of that will be investigated-which is a process that the public must have faith in.
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Again you seem to selectively include only components to support the police/officers interactions whilst telling all others to await IOPC investigation as that will cover all relevant facts and details and not to jump to conclusions. You cannot have it both ways?
You don't have knowledge of exact nature of the information pre attendance and from whom but you are purporting this to be valid/substantive to officers on scene. I also note you state reports to officers 'on scene' that further validated officers decision to treat victim as suspect. Again, you are not fully aware of these and/or their context but purporting this as seemingly to support officers actions. I note however you don't specifically mention Victims report to Officers on scene, prior to his arrest and handcuffing that he had been stabbed and how that should have been considered/validated.
You argue he wasn't "immediately arrested". How long did it take? Have you timed it? As you say you only want state facts? I havent timed it so I cannot claim I do. However, its a fact he was handcuffed & arrested before arresting officer had the time to check the Victims statement [on scene] and confirm whether he had or had not been stabbed x5 times and whether he could or couldnt breathe or needed medical intervention.
I just feel that you want to selectively state elements that may support police/officers interactions , [including "it was dark", "it wasnt obvious" both very subjective] within IOPC investigation whilst at sametime calling out others who have differing viewpoint that they need to keep quiet as they dont know all the facts and police have a difficult job and await outcome of IOPC investigation.
 
We need to take the toxic politics out of this and take a deep breath. This case should be a wake-up call for all of us. You don’t need to be Rupert fucking Lowe to see what’s happened here.
Sikh people are generally well integrated and respected members of society. My neighbour is Sikh but has an “English” forename (as does his brother and Dad), they choose not to wear turbans - apart from their skin colour they are indistinguishable from the majority local population. I had several Sikh men work for me over my career and none of them wore a ceremonial blade to the office like this piece of shit apparently did - I know accountancy can be dangerous but a short sword is not necessary ! I’m old enough to remember the furore when Sikhs tried to wear turbans as part of a bus workers uniform - most people were sympathetic and supported them - you can’t do much harm to someone with a turban. Ceremonial knives are different and should be subject to the law like all bladed weapons.
I have seen the ‘race card’ played for entirely opportunistic purposes several times at first hand. Two ladies - one of Indian heritage got involved in a heated but trivial argument and she basically said ‘do as I say or I’ll report you for making racist remarks to me, you’ll be banned from this place and find a lot of trouble in your life’ The dispute was about music volume. No racist remarks were made.
I’ve not followed the murder case in detail, nor seen the footage of the arrest as I find it depressing beyond belief - but I will do so, as we have to face up to these issues.
The “two tier” argument clearly has validity and it really needs to be dealt with. The thought of my eight-week old grandson growing up in a world where some of his peers will be given advantage over him due to identity is frankly unacceptable. This is beyond politics.
 
bert38 said:
I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've put-but I will add firstly that its a minimum of 21 years. And it was the coroner who said that Henry's injuries were so severe that he would have succumbed to those injuries irrespective of anything.

You make perfectly valid points but we do not know the full facts-we are all, myself included, making a series of assumptions based on incomplete evidence-how would I have reacted? I don't know-the arresting officer may have thought, right lets get him arrested and out of here and then we can come back and sort this out and get to the bottom of it-which is what happens every day in policing-you almost have to pick a side.

But his and his colleagues mindset and thinking will be investigated in great depth-it may be that unconscious bias played a role-indeed, quite often when things go wrong it only takes one bad decision early on and the rest of the decisions are made on that basis-each compounding the previous one. Police are and should be accountable-but the lynch mob mentality of social media and now Farage ('cold hard rage') is really unhelpful but I respect all the points you make.
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I understand this however the comment "I've been stabbed" followed by "I don't think so mate" is pretty damning. It wasn't that the Police made a mistake and missed something, they just chose to ignore it entirely. Regardless of anything else surely somebody saying I've been stabbed should raise alarm?

Stress and that kind of thing does come into it but they weren't trying to arrest a violent murderer trying to escape. They were trying to arrest somebody who was dying in the street and they had all the time in the world. Again I think it's pretty damning to be honest and it's hard to picture how else they treated this other than unconscious bias.

Of course the Police cannot win but this is just another episode of the division we see in society. The fact is though that division is indeed being painted by the right but we must also recognise that the same applies to the left. On this there is a clear correlation between the view put forwards and political allegiances which just proves that it's a huge problem.
 
The only productive feelings that people can express at the moment are empathy and sympathy for the devastating situation Henry's family have found themselves in.

For everything else associated with this case the justice system is dealing with the murderer and his family members and there is an ongoing enquiry into the police officers response and behaviours. After the enquiry is completed is the time for a less febrile political debate about anything that it raises.

Anyone trying to use this case in the here and now for their own political ends is part of the problem not the solution.
 
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The blue phantom said:
Why would starmer address the nation, What do you want him to say?

A British man has stabbed another British man to death. Happens every week.

Let the police investigate the officers who were involved in the arrest by all means.
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In any case, Starmer commented on it yesterday before Farage did:

www.dailyecho.co.uk

'Awful, shocking case' says Prime Minister as student killer jailed

The Prime Minister has weighed in on the sentencing of a Southampton man who murdered a student with a knife in the city streets
www.dailyecho.co.uk www.dailyecho.co.uk
 
threespires said:
The only productive feelings that people can express at the moment are empathy and sympathy for the devastating situation Harry's family have found themselves in.

For everything else associated with this case the justice system is dealing with the murderer and his family members and there is an ongoing enquiry into the police officers response and behaviours. After the enquiry is completed is the time for a less febrile political debate about anything that it raises.

Anyone trying to use this case in the here and now for their own political ends is part of the problem not the solution.
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The people using this for their political ends are not interested in a solution. The more tension they can create the better it is for them. The optics of this incident are very simple. Man of colour stabs white man and police fail to react in a professional manner. For those of a certain persuasion its manna from heaven
 
Yup, not sure where race comes into it. Some people love to bring race up. Its about time we all just stopped recognising someones race, we're all equal supposedly.

This stabbing and the police response seems shocking. Looks like some breakdown in police policy and procedure. Really fucks me off that guy died being handcuffed. If the coppers who did it are twats hopefully they dont get away with it (Like sometimes the police do). If they were following hardline police procedure then the policy makers need to answer.
 
We've got Guardiola said:
I understand this however the comment "I've been stabbed" followed by "I don't think so mate" is pretty damning. It wasn't that the Police made a mistake and missed something, they just chose to ignore it entirely. Regardless of anything else surely somebody saying I've been stabbed should raise alarm?

Stress and that kind of thing does come into it but they weren't trying to arrest a violent murderer trying to escape. They were trying to arrest somebody who was dying in the street and they had all the time in the world. Again I think it's pretty damning to be honest and it's hard to picture how else they treated this other than unconscious bias.

Of course the Police cannot win but this is just another episode of the division we see in society. The fact is though that division is indeed being painted by the right but we must also recognise that the same applies to the left. On this there is a clear correlation between the view put forwards and political allegiances which just proves that it's a huge problem.
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The officer made that decision based on what information he had-rightly or as it turned out, wrongly. My point is officers have to make decisions -its not an automated process-once he made one erroneous decision the rest then followed..that's how things go badly. And he didn't know he was dying-it was probably the last thing on his mind..wrongly again as it turned out. But in those circumstances it likely wouldn't have crossed my mind-once I had skipped past his pleas..which the officer (wrongly) did. It was a catalogue of errors that will be unpicked.

Unconscious bias may have been a huge factor in those initial decisions that set of the sequence.

When I watched the footage last night my thoughts were in the cold light of day the throwaway comment made by the officer dismissing the plea that he had been stabbed looks and sounds awful-and the officer will reflect on that for the rest of his life. That remark gives insight into a path of decisions that he had made and went onto make.

I also questioned whether the use of handcuffs was proportional and necessary as the 'offender' (in the eyes of the officer) at that time posed little threat-but again, he has to justify that through his use of force form and statement, and it may been subjectively justified.

But I also thought that once they realised his health was rapidly deteriorating that they did react accordingly-calling for an ambulance and commencing CPR.

It went horribly wrong. No officer goes to work expecting things to go so catastrophically wrong. But I'm not ready for the pitchforks just yet.
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Yup, not sure where race comes into it. Some people love to bring race up. Its about time we all just stopped recognising someones race, we're all equal supposedly.

This stabbing and the police response seems shocking. Looks like some breakdown in police policy and procedure. Really fucks me off that guy died being handcuffed. If the coppers who did it are twats hopefully they dont get away with it (Like sometimes the police do). If they were following hardline police procedure then the policy makers need to answer.
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Agree. White/black/brown is irrelevant. Only the murderer decided race was relevant in this case.
 
bert38 said:
The officer made that decision based on what information he had-rightly or as it turned out, wrongly. My point is officers have to make decisions -its not an automated process-once he made one erroneous decision the rest then followed..that's how things go badly. And he didn't know he was dying-it was probably the last thing on his mind..wrongly again as it turned out. But in those circumstances it likely wouldn't have crossed my mind-once I had skipped past his pleas..which the officer (wrongly) did. It was a catalogue of errors that will be unpicked.

Unconscious bias may have been a huge factor in those initial decisions that set of the sequence.

When I watched the footage last night my thoughts were in the cold light of day the throwaway comment made by the officer dismissing the plea that he had been stabbed looks and sounds awful-and the officer will reflect on that for the rest of his life. That remark gives insight into a path of decisions that he had made and went onto make.

I also questioned whether the use of handcuffs was proportional and necessary as the 'offender' (in the eyes of the officer) at that time posed little threat-but again, he has to justify that through his use of force form and statement, and it may been subjectively justified.

But I also thought that once they realised his health was rapidly deteriorating that they did react accordingly-calling for an ambulance and commencing CPR.

It went horribly wrong. No officer goes to work expecting things to go so catastrophically wrong. But I'm not ready for the pitchforks just yet.
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There needs to be a proper investigation but sometimes some errors are so grave that you need to lose your job. That’s the only acceptable form of accountability. I can’t believe from the video, etc, that the way officers handled it was anything like what they would have been trained to do and if you are that incompetent then you need to be prevented from doing the job.
 
Once you treat this as a stabbing, and a stabbing only, the route to justice becomes so clear.
Investigation, charge, verdict, sentence; for the police too.
Anything else is simply noise, and often with political and/or racial undertones.
 
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