Player Topic: Jason Denayer (2015/2016)

[tolmie's hairdoo]

That was the attitude at Utd with pogba!

True to an extent, although Pogba hadn't even proved himself anywhere, yet ran his contract down.

I would like to think Txiki knows where Denayer is in his progression.

 

[hihosilva]

True to an extent, although Pogba hadn't even proved himself anywhere, yet ran his contract down.

I would like to think Txiki knows where Denayer is in his progression.

TH, a quick question. Can we close the Pogba thread or are we still hanging in there.

 

[Neville Kneville]

He's not better than anybody else we have in his position.

Young Player of Year in Scotland, a player this makes not.

Guidetti tore it up in both Holland and at Celtic park, some barometers are better than others.

The centre-half position takes years of dedication and refining, similarly to a goalkeeper.

Some of these kids need to realise they are at Manchester City, and we are doing them an enormous favour, giving them a fabulous degree of legitimacy and grounding.

Would the likes of Lopes and Denayer be demanding to be given first-team football at Real Madrid or Barcelona? No, they would think better of it, and know their place.

Why should it be any different at out club, one which is now one of the most relevant in world football?

Denayer needs to prove his credentials and learn from his mistakes in a league and a team where he will be given that breathing space.

We can't afford to do that. If he or anyone else isn't willing to be patient, then we don't need them.

Denayer would get games for any team in the world who uses young players, including Real or Barca.

If he was shite & struggled, then, he would be moved on.

City & Chelsea have become the worst teams anywhere for giving kids a chance. The idea we can't possibly risk Denayer, & have to have 4 senior cbs, is ridiculous imo.

 

[Rolee]

He's not better than anybody else we have in his position.

Young Player of Year in Scotland, a player this makes not.

Guidetti tore it up in both Holland and at Celtic park, some barometers are better than others.

The centre-half position takes years of dedication and refining, similarly to a goalkeeper.

Some of these kids need to realise they are at Manchester City, and we are doing them an enormous favour, giving them a fabulous degree of legitimacy and grounding.

Would the likes of Lopes and Denayer be demanding to be given first-team football at Real Madrid or Barcelona? No, they would think better of it, and know their place.

Why should it be any different at out club, one which is now one of the most relevant in world football?

Denayer needs to prove his credentials and learn from his mistakes in a league and a team where he will be given that breathing space.

We can't afford to do that. If he or anyone else isn't willing to be patient, then we don't need them.

I take your point but what had Varane proven before signing and playing for Real at the same age Denayer is now?

 

[twosips]

He's not better than anybody else we have in his position.

Young Player of Year in Scotland, a player this makes not.

Guidetti tore it up in both Holland and at Celtic park, some barometers are better than others.

The centre-half position takes years of dedication and refining, similarly to a goalkeeper.

Some of these kids need to realise they are at Manchester City, and we are doing them an enormous favour, giving them a fabulous degree of legitimacy and grounding.

Would the likes of Lopes and Denayer be demanding to be given first-team football at Real Madrid or Barcelona? No, they would think better of it, and know their place.

Why should it be any different at out club, one which is now one of the most relevant in world football?

Denayer needs to prove his credentials and learn from his mistakes in a league and a team where he will be given that breathing space.

We can't afford to do that. If he or anyone else isn't willing to be patient, then we don't need them.

That's all very well, and I agree with the sentiment but i also think its a tad too narrow an argument. I don't think any of them are expecting to walk straight into the first team, more at least given the impression that they will be used at some point. So far, and it may improve, our record for integrating is very poor and all signs seem to point to maybe, if they're lucky, them getting about a handful of games this year. If he stays can any of us really see him getting more than 4/5 appearances this year? No, not really. Pellers, as much as I love him, will clearly play whatever other senior CB that didn't play the week before in any cup games. Demi, Mangala instead of VK, Ota etc.

Kids will never, ever be better until actually given a chance to prove that. If we're expecting any of our kids to come in and be 'better' than our first team then we will never integrate a player ever. It's not possible. How can they be without the exposure they need at our very highest level...which they won't get out on loan cos they'll move to smaller clubs. It's about developing them and letting them feel like their part of the team. You can't blame Denayer for wanting to move. It's not arrogance, its common sense - he knows he needs games to carry on developing. Four small apperances wont do that. He's not wanting the world, just a chance which on balance he doesn't think he'll get. Can you blame him?

We have to send a message to some of these kids at some point that they will be involved in some way. At the moment we're doing the opposite. The demanding their place thing at Real or Barca - well, Real dont bring anyone through for the same reasons. Hence why they always spend a fortune every year, something our owners dont want to do, hence the CFA investment. They don't give them a chance so their kids leave, whereas Barca DO have a reputation for bringing players through so their kids will be patient. Ours are tentative, understandably so. They're ambitious and want first team football. They dont want zero chances.

I agree there has to be patience, but I also think its a two way street. The player has to show he's willing to wait, and the club have to show they're willing to be given a chance at some point. Youth development always is like that. We only used Pozo last year, and that was as a last resort. A proper desperate last resort, and then we threw him in out of position for three games. No others were given minutes. We left the likes of Ambrose sat on the bench while 3-0 up at home, bringing Sinclair on. One of many, many examples. I 100% agree that players need to do developing before they get involved, but the club DOES at some point need to get into a habit of using players in cups etc, giving the most promising talent the odd taste of first team football at City. Not asking for much, just 30 minutes in a cup game. It breeds confidence, acts as an incentive, and, importantly, removes all those initial nerves that plague youth players on their first team debut so when they ARE ready they settle in seamlessly. Ya never know too, one could excel and we could have ourselves a potential star, or at least a viable squad member that could save us in an emergency. As it stands we have neither, cos we simply dont know.

Denayer isn't to blame in this. If the club made it clear he'd get a chance, then went against that and immediately signed a new CB why should he trust them? I wouldn't. You can say 'well thats football', but he doesnt have to like it or agree with it. He's being proactive cos he's not stupid. He's just broke into Belgium's national team, looking absolutely excellent in the process, and his career is on a vastly upwards trajectory. He doesn't want to spend a season playing no football (he wont even be involved in the eds either), apart from maybe 4/5 niggly, irrelevant appearances. We don't need 4 centre backs ahead of him. That's just unfair.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

I take your point but what had Varane proven before signing and playing for Real at the same age Denayer is now?

I take your point but I don't rate Varane as highly as others do ( I also think Ramos is shite)

And I certainly don't think he would have half the admirers he presently does if he had been thrown into the Premier League at the same age.

Real Madrid and Barca defenders aren't especially a good example, as they spend the majority of games parked in the opposition's half.

Same went for Denayer at Celtic.

I believe we would reap the benefits more if Denayer refined his art in Italy or at somewhere like Valencia.

 

[twosips]

Also, the idea that loans are the be all and end all for development, is to be frank, naive. Look at Chelsea's pathetic loan carousel. It's not worked once, cos its vague, nothingness. It can work every now and then, but some players will always react best in different environments - i.e being in the first team around elite players. Garcia for example will always look vastly better in and around our talented footballers then he will out on loan. Guaranteed. Cos he reacts to intelligent, supreme footballers. Not lower journeymen. He'll look out of place.

Some very, very talented players will look rubbish on loan, because the environment doesnt suit them or the team isnt right or whatever. We cant see loans as the solution, cos its not as simple as that. It may work for Denayer, but it wont work for everyone. If we think it will, then we'll wast some very good players.

 

[wattle]

What's the flap? Makes perfect sense. Demi for 1 more year then we have a ready made replacement with more experience. So long as denyer is happy to do it, which he sounds like he is, it's a no brainer to me. I'd be more bothered if we signed a striker meaning Nacho was pushed out coz he's Deffo ready now and we need to bring at least one eds through a year. Next year denyer and possibly Angelino :-)

 

[MCFCFanTX]

Like posted previously, I think a loan to Marseilles could work out well. It will be a difficult transition at first but if he gets consistent playing time, I think this could work in our favor and be a big boost to his development. We already know he's quite a talent, he just needs consistent time and work to hone his skills. A loan would allow him to do that because he isn't going to get much playing time with Vinnie, Mangala and now Otamendi on the squad.

 

[Neville Kneville]

I take your point but what had Varane proven before signing and playing for Real at the same age Denayer is now?

It's because he's taller. Pure & simple. If Denayer was 6ft 3, he'd probably get a game. He's twice the player Boyata is for instance, but not as big. And if anyone watched the recent France/Belgium game, Verane (who I rate very highly) looked an uncultured lump compared to Denayer. But he's probably better on corners.

In the days when City had the balls to play youngsters, if they didn't think Denayer was upto playing cb physically, they would use him in another position & get him used to playing at that level. Now we are loaded, we don't need to do that, so we don't bother.

Imo, it would take Denayer just a few games to become as good or better at right back that either of the current two. He's faster, better 1v1 & a better footballer than either of them, by a distance. I'd also back him to learn Fernando's job in no time.

But City don't 'need' to try anything like that, it would purely be done, in order to bring through an academy player, rather than the easiest choice for the team.

So perhaps Denayer will just be judged as a cb & that's it.

No need to think outside the box or give kids a chance anymore, or grow them in the team, just pick the ready made ones.

 

[George Hannah]

I take your point but I don't rate Varane as highly as others do ( I also think Ramos is shite)

And I certainly don't think he would have half the admirers he presently does if he had been thrown into the Premier League at the same age.

Real Madrid and Barca defenders aren't especially a good example, as they spend the majority of games parked in the opposition's half.

Same went for Denayer at Celtic.

I believe we would reap the benefits more if Denayer refined his art in Italy or at somewhere like Valencia.

Hey Tolm - we still on course for a Bruneday today?!

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

That's all very well, and I agree with the sentiment but i also think its a tad too narrow an argument. I don't think any of them are expecting to walk straight into the first team, more at least given the impression that they will be used at some point. So far, and it may improve, our record for integrating is very poor and all signs seem to point to maybe, if they're lucky, them getting about a handful of games this year. If he stays can any of us really see him getting more than 4/5 appearances this year? No, not really. Pellers, as much as I love him, will clearly play whatever other senior CB that didn't play the week before in any cup games. Demi, Mangala instead of VK, Ota etc.

Kids will never, ever be better until actually given a chance to prove that. If we're expecting any of our kids to come in and be 'better' than our first team then we will never integrate a player ever. It's not possible. How can they be without the exposure they need at our very highest level...which they won't get out on loan cos they'll move to smaller clubs. It's about developing them and letting them feel like their part of the team. You can't blame Denayer for wanting to move. It's not arrogance, its common sense - he knows he needs games to carry on developing. Four small apperances wont do that. He's not wanting the world, just a chance which on balance he doesn't think he'll get. Can you blame him?

We have to send a message to some of these kids at some point that they will be involved in some way. At the moment we're doing the opposite. The demanding their place thing at Real or Barca - well, Real dont bring anyone through for the same reasons. Hence why they always spend a fortune every year, something our owners dont want to do, hence the CFA investment. They don't give them a chance so their kids leave, whereas Barca DO have a reputation for bringing players through so their kids will be patient. Ours are tentative, understandably so. They're ambitious and want first team football. They dont want zero chances.

I agree there has to be patience, but I also think its a two way street. The player has to show he's willing to wait, and the club have to show they're willing to be given a chance at some point. Youth development always is like that. We only used Pozo last year, and that was as a last resort. A proper desperate last resort, and then we threw him in out of position for three games. No others were given minutes. We left the likes of Ambrose sat on the bench while 3-0 up at home, bringing Sinclair on. One of many, many examples. I 100% agree that players need to do developing before they get involved, but the club DOES at some point need to get into a habit of using players in cups etc, giving the most promising talent the odd taste of first team football at City. Not asking for much, just 30 minutes in a cup game. It breeds confidence, acts as an incentive, and, importantly, removes all those initial nerves that plague youth players on their first team debut so when they ARE ready they settle in seamlessly. Ya never know too, one could excel and we could have ourselves a potential star, or at least a viable squad member that could save us in an emergency. As it stands we have neither, cos we simply dont know.

Denayer isn't to blame in this. If the club made it clear he'd get a chance, then went against that and immediately signed a new CB why should he trust them? I wouldn't. You can say 'well thats football', but he doesnt have to like it or agree with it. He's being proactive cos he's not stupid. He's just broke into Belgium's national team, looking absolutely excellent in the process, and his career is on a vastly upwards trajectory. He doesn't want to spend a season playing no football (he wont even be involved in the eds either), apart from maybe 4/5 niggly, irrelevant appearances. We don't need 4 centre backs ahead of him. That's just unfair.

I respect your excellent post advocacy in the wider sense of giving youth a chance, however, the problem is two-fold.

We have not had one player since the takeover who warranted a closer extended look or opportunity, and the club, despite its recent success, is still not in a position where we have the luxury of giving youth a fling, cups games just won't cut it, as you say.

A handful of games here or there, it serves no purpose to the player or the club, who simply exposes itself to the risk of a bad result.

United used McNair and Blackett last season, more out of necessity and injuries, than due to any outstanding talent, having now gone back to whence they came.

The quotes from Denayer's agent don't hint at anything other than he expected to be playing on a regular basis, so perhaps we are doing City a disservice and we will move Demichelis on before the window is out.

You have made me reconsider the message we are sending out, but I'll be truthful, I couldn't care less who is playing as long as we are winning.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

Hey Tolm - we still on course for a Bruneday today?!

Hope so! Got my binoculars on standby ;)

 

[Neville Kneville]

I respect your excellent post advocacy in the wider sense of giving youth a chance, however, the problem is two-fold.

We have not had one player since the takeover who warranted a closer extended look or opportunity, and the club, despite its recent success, is still not in a position where we have the luxury of giving youth a fling, cups games just won't cut it, as you say.

A handful of games here or there, it serves no purpose to the player or the club, who simply exposes itself to the risk of a bad result.

United used McNair and Blackett last season, more out of necessity and injuries, than due to any outstanding talent, having now gone back to whence they came.

The quotes from Denayer's agent don't hint at anything other than he expected to be playing on a regular basis, so perhaps we are doing City a disservice and we will move Demichelis on before the window is out.

You have made me reconsider the message we are sending out, but I'll be truthful, I couldn't care less who is playing as long as we are winning.

If Demi was to leave, then it softens the blow a bit to Denayer & maybe gives him a bit of hope. But I think it would be overkill by the club, having 4 full on internationals as cb, when we already have Sagna who can play there. If that's how we start the season, after the window, then I don't get it at all.

 

[bugsyblue]

I want to win the cups. We have quality players who all need to be placated with cup football, who are all more deserving, better-paid, more talented, than anything we've got coming through at present, outside of Iheanacho.

These kids are only going to prove their credentials playing every week at decent clubs in decent leagues.

Only then, will we be more informed to decide whether the time has come for them to be afforded the final step.

I'm not saying Denayer won't make it, but he's got far too many steps to make, before City expose him to the level we are at.

We have done well to get him on a long-term deal, so we are covered whether he does well somewhere else or throws a hissy fit.

There's still enough game time in the league and champions league to placate our 25 man squad, which Denayer is part of by the way. I still think if we get drawn against Gillingham in the cup we'd be mad not to give Denayer, Iheanacho, Lopes and Garcia a chance.

 

[tolmie's hairdoo]

If Demi was to leave, then it softens the blow a bit to Denayer & maybe gives him a bit of hope. But I think it would be overkill by the club, having 4 full on internationals as cb, when we already have Sagna who can play there. If that's how we start the season, after the window, then I don't get it at all.

Then that would indeed suggest we sold Denayer and his agent a pup.

Club comes first end of the day, and perhaps we have discovered a ruthless streak after taking the likes of Milner at his word and seeing Micah and Joleon run things down two years out.

I forgot Sagna looked very good when asked to play in the centre for Arsenal.

Personally, I hope Mangala proves me wrong, but he does things which can't be excused whatever level you play at in terms of some basic defending.

Otamendi looks amazing on the left of a pairing, despite being right-footed.

 

[George Hannah]

Hey Tolm - we still on course for a Bruneday today?!

Hope so! Got my binoculars on standby ;)

Good man!

 

[twosips]

I respect your excellent post advocacy in the wider sense of giving youth a chance, however, the problem is two-fold.

We have not had one player since the takeover who warranted a closer extended look or opportunity, and the club, despite its recent success, is still not in a position where we have the luxury of giving youth a fling, cups games just won't cut it, as you say.

A handful of games here or there, it serves no purpose to the player or the club, who simply exposes itself to the risk of a bad result.

United used McNair and Blackett last season, more out of necessity and injuries, than due to any outstanding talent, having now gone back to whence they came.

The quotes from Denayer's agent don't hint at anything other than he expected to be playing on a regular basis, so perhaps we are doing City a disservice and we will move Demichelis on before the window is out.

You have made me reconsider the message we are sending out, but I'll be truthful, I couldn't care less who is playing as long as we are winning.

I guess that speaks volumes, really. Personally, I don't want to be the current Real Madrid. Truly great clubs make their own. Galactico teams are boring, samey and cheap. There's nothing more exciting in football to me than seeing someone come through the club. It means more, infinitely. The affinity towards SWP & Richards being lovely, recent examples. Football isn't just about trophies to me, City aren't. I wanna like and feel proud of the players we have. I'll always feel a whole lot prouder than a kid breaking through than an expensive squad player signed for £15m doing relatively nowt.

I also agree that until recently we've not had good enough players. Trust me though, we fucking do now, hence the frustration. Denayer would be pointless getting five games, I agree, but it'd not be a waste if he made 10-15 starts and another 15 sub appearances. He'd be fine with that too. That is regular football, and the least a highly promising, intelligent footballer deserves. He'd make that at Barca this season, without question. He's that good a footballer. His agent knows though it's most likely going to be considerably less.

However, several of our younger talents would unquestionably benefit from those 4-5 short appearances. Maffeo, Barker, Ambrose, Bryan, Gunn etc etc etc...I could go on. These will be undoubtedly better footballers come the start of next season if given the odd chance. It's what Fergie did excellently, as much as a I hate to admit it. It most definitely serves a purpose to the player AND the club. The club learns which players excel in this team much sooner, losing what? thirty minutes?...all when we're cruising towards a cup round success? Nothing to lose, lots to gain. Potential game-changers and match winners to unearth. We've seen loads of random kids give City's fullbacks the run around before for lesser teams. Rolando Aarons at Newcastle for one. Nothing Barker or Ambrose couldnt do either in a cup game. Say one does - we think 'hang on, he's a player' and all of a sudden an injury crisis in the league doesnt result in panic mode and a need to play someone like james milner up front, cos we know the kid in reserve can do it, plus theyve already got their nervy initial debut out of the way too. Then we have a player potentially, and unexpectedly, ready for next year, saving us a fortune. Nowt to lose, lots to win..

 

[domalino]

I respect your excellent post advocacy in the wider sense of giving youth a chance, however, the problem is two-fold.

We have not had one player since the takeover who warranted a closer extended look or opportunity, and the club, despite its recent success, is still not in a position where we have the luxury of giving youth a fling, cups games just won't cut it, as you say.

A handful of games here or there, it serves no purpose to the player or the club, who simply exposes itself to the risk of a bad result.

United used McNair and Blackett last season, more out of necessity and injuries, than due to any outstanding talent, having now gone back to whence they came.

The quotes from Denayer's agent don't hint at anything other than he expected to be playing on a regular basis, so perhaps we are doing City a disservice and we will move Demichelis on before the window is out.

You have made me reconsider the message we are sending out, but I'll be truthful, I couldn't care less who is playing as long as we are winning.

RE: Demichelis, his former club, River Plate are selling their best CB to Everton. He shares an agent with Demichelis. There's already been rumours Demi fancies a return before retiring.

Could easily see Demi to River Plate happening, but would that really be better for Denayer?

Stoke, Sunderland and Newcastle are all looking for starting CB's. I don't really see how anyone can justify him staying here as fourth choice being better than him playing week in week out against PL opposition if we could get him a loan to one of those clubs.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Then that would indeed suggest we sold Denayer and his agent a pup.

Club comes first end of the day, and perhaps we have discovered a ruthless streak after taking the likes of Milner at his word and seeing Micah and Joleon run things down two years out.

I forgot Sagna looked very good when asked to play in the centre for Arsenal.

Personally, I hope Mangala proves me wrong, but he does things which can't be excused whatever level you play at in terms of some basic defending.

Otamendi looks amazing on the left of a pairing, despite being right-footed.

I understand what you mean re Mangala, but tbf, each & every one of our defenders, last season, has done stuff which falls into that exact same catagory, especially the captain & Zabaleta. Some of the stuff those two did, you would be disappointed if you saw it in the U18s. But I have faith that we will see a difference in both this season, & perhaps Managala will then follow the same.