Teenage Intifada

Paul_Powers_Tash said:
Strange how Israel can occupy and partition a neighboring country and the world thinks its ok.
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So which neighbouring country have they occupied?

Their neighbours are Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon & Syria. They haven't occupied either of the first three and in fact they have peace treaties with both Egypt & Jordan. There's Syria of course but they're still technically at war with them. In fact Syria did occupy Lebanon for many years and effectively partitioned it so what did you have to say about that?
 
peace frog said:
what is a Zionist
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west didsblue is correct. The problem is the term has been hijacked by anti-semites like our friend as a substitute for 'Jew'. You can be a Zionist and still fundamentally disagree with the policies of the Israeli government. I'd put myself in that bracket. You can also be a Zionist and be what's effectively a Jewish supremacist.

Zionism was originally a political, leftist ideology and despised by the religious right, who felt that only God could restore Israel to the Jewish people.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
So which neighbouring country have they occupied?

Their neighbours are Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon & Syria. They haven't occupied either of the first three and in fact they have peace treaties with both Egypt & Jordan. There's Syria of course but they're still technically at war with them. In fact Syria did occupy Lebanon for many years and effectively partitioned it so what did you have to say about that?
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I take it from your reply that you do not recognise the state of Palestine.
 
This excellent and informative article on whether we are approaching a third intifada (uprising) was printed in the Morning Star today and was written by Professor Kamel Hawwash who is Vice Chair of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign:

Is A Third Intifada Starting?
OCT
2015
Tuesday 13TH

As violence escalates an end to Israeli occupation is the only meaningful solution, writes Kamel Hawwash

A POSSIBLE third intifada is underway in Palestine and Israel. The past couple of weeks have seen an escalation in violence between Palestinians and Israelis the likes of which we have not seen since last year’s 51-day attack on Gaza.

While the spark was in Jerusalem, Palestinians are rising against the occupation, discrimination, inequality and the Gaza siege in the West Bank, Gaza and inside the Green Line. This has included daily clashes between unarmed Palestinians and the Israeli occupation forces, but also a number of knife attacks and incidents of stone-throwing by both Palestinians and Jewish Israelis.

As with previous incidents, the heaviest casualties have been on the Palestinian side, with hundreds injured and a more than 20 killed at the time of writing, including a pregnant woman and her three-year-old daughter in Gaza.

A further worrying development has been the killing almost at point-blank range of Palestinians who had not posed any danger, as documented by video clips from the scene on social media. Those include Asma’a Abed from Nazareth and Fadi Alloun from Issawiya, Jerusalem.

In addition, Palestinian medical teams have been targeted by Israeli forces. The Palestinian Red Crescent Society “documented 53 attacks against its teams and ambulances in which 37 emergency medical technicians were wounded and around 20 ambulances were damaged since October 3.”

The Palestine Solidarity Campaign is saddened by the loss of any innocent life in the conflict. But in order to avoid any further loss of life in the future, it is important that the cause of recent events is analysed and lessons learnt to bring about a just peace in the future.

We must first remember that the root cause of the continuing instability and violence is the longest military occupation in history, that the Palestinians continue to suffer from. In 1967 Israel completed the occupation of the whole of historic Palestine, the remaining 22 per cent. It immediately announced the annexation of east Jerusalem and later of the occupied Syrian Golan Heights.

Forty eight years on and the Palestinians continue to live under a brutal occupation, with no hope of this ending soon.

They see Israel expanding illegal settlement construction on their land in east Jerusalem and the West Bank. The number of illegal Israeli settlers now stands at 600,000. Israel interferes with every aspect of Palestinian lives. It controls their movement between their towns and villages and also their exit and entry to the occupied territories via Jordan.

Recent years have seen growing settler violence, which Palestinians see as terror, in which they attack their villages and crops and cut down their olive trees. The perpetrators call them “price tag” attacks. The violence has further escalated as it has gone unchecked by an Israeli government which is hugely sympathetic to the settlement enterprise and has largely shied away from calling them terror attacks.

The Dawabshe family paid with their lives when settlers burnt them to death in their home in Duma village. Their killers have not faced justice, despite strong suspicion by Palestinians that they are known.

Gaza is separated from the West Bank and Jerusalem and has been under an almost permanent siege since 2007, with access to the West Bank through Israel, or to Egypt through the Rafah Crossing, almost impossible. Even Prime Minister David Cameron called it a “prison camp” in 2010 but the situation continues to worsen, especially after last year’s Israeli war, which left over 2,000 dead, tens of thousands injured and tens of thousands of homes destroyed, with little reconstruction since.

If all of this was not enough to ignite an uprising by the Palestinians, Israel has been slowly but surely implementing policies that would change the situation on the ground in occupied east Jerusalem.

Prior to 1967, east Jerusalem, Al-Quds in Arabic, was home to Palestinian Muslims and Christians. But since its annexation Israel has implemented policies that restrict the growth of the Palestinian population, through the almost guaranteed refusal of planning permits for homes or businesses, and also the planting of illegal settlements among the Palestinian population, which only Jews can populate.

Which other democracy would build homes for only one ethnic or religious group?

The illegal settlements also encircle east Jerusalem with the plan to cut it off from the West Bank, making it impossible for it to be the capital of a future Palestinian state. The wall cuts through Palestinian areas, placing some outside Jerusalem and necessitating a daily crossing through a checkpoint, but also endangers their precious Jerusalem ID card which allows them access to the City. Israel regularly takes this away if a Palestinian resides outside the city.

In addition, Israel has its eye on Al-Aqsa mosque, the first point to which Muslims turned when praying and the third holiest mosque in Islam. Jews revere the area too, where they are told two Jewish Temples existed. Among Israeli government ministers and members of the Knesset are individuals who believe that a third Jewish Temple should replace Al-Aqsa Mosque. This kind of talk can turn the conflict into a religious conflict with predictable dire consequences.

In recent months, large groups of mainly extremist settlers, government ministers and Knesset members have forced their way into Al-Aqsa, protected by armed security forces, provoking Palestinians as they walked through the Old City.

Israel claims that a “status quo” exists, agreed with Jordan, that non-Muslims including Jews can visit the site but are not permitted to pray. But this did not imply daily unco-ordinated break-ins and a closure of the mosque to Muslims. This has though become the norm in recent months. Palestinians are worried that Israel wants to divide the mosque, first through scheduling Jewish-only times and then geographically, which they completely oppose, as does Jordan.

Recent violent attacks saw Israeli troops enter the Qibli mosque and desecrate it. Barring Muslims and specific individuals who have taken to protecting the mosque through their presence and challenging those who break into the mosque have led to clashes and raised tensions.

This, it seems, was a deliberate policy by Benjamin Netanyahu to change the status quo while the world was busy with Syria, Iraq, Isis and the Iran deal. He badly miscalculated and underestimated the resilience of the Palestinians. This was the final trigger for the recent violence.

The rising tensions and the lack of a genuine process to bring justice to the area have led to the current crisis and unless this is addressed in good faith, it will continue to cause regular spikes in violence, even if the current round subsides soon.

Successive British governments have sided with Israel. This has added to its sense that it can do almost anything illegal and not be censured. In the absence of government action, the British people have joined the escalating Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement to put pressure on Israel until it comes to its senses and accepts the implementation of international law.

It is quite simple. As Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti recently said in an article in the British Press: “The last day of the occupation will be the first day of peace.”

  • Professor Kamel Hawwash is vice chair of the Palestine Solidarity Campaign.
 
Prestwich blue - do you accept that Israel have taken land from Palestine??
 
There is no genocide, but Israel is unquestionably guilty of ethnic cleansing. Moving Palestinians out of areas to make it ethnically pure for Jews is no different than the bantustans in South Africa or the Judenrein in Nazi Germany.
 
west didsblue said:
There is a geographic entity called Palestine and a state with borders that have not been agreed called Palestine that was declared in 1988. It has not yet received full membership of the UN, and a final settlement which will include agreed borders has been under negotiation on and off for the last 22 years since the Oslo accords.
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It was recognised as a "non member observer state" by the UN in 2012; a move that was described by the Independent at the time as de facto recognition of the State of Palestine. To put it into perspective, Switzerland was a "non member observer state" until 2002. According to Ducado's logic Switzerland mustn't have existed in 2001.I wonder where I went skiing?
 
Paul_Powers_Tash said:
It was recognised as a "non member observer state" by the UN in 2012; a move that was described by the Independent at the time as de facto recognition of the State of Palestine. To put it into perspective, Switzerland was a "non member observer state" until 2002. According to Ducado's logic Switzerland mustn't have existed in 2001.I wonder where I went skiing?
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But nobody cares what the UN thinks. (OK, the Guardian, Independent and the BBC do, but nobody else).

Perhaps because of things like its current High Commissioner for Human Rights being a prince from Jordan, a country which has a terrible human rights record.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Zeid_bin_Ra'ad

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/jordan/report-jordan/
 
urmston said:
But nobody cares what the UN thinks. (OK, the Guardian, Independent and the BBC do, but nobody else).

Perhaps because of things like its current High Commissioner for Human Rights being a prince from Jordan, a country which has a terrible human rights record.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Zeid_bin_Ra'ad

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/jordan/report-jordan/
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Hmmmm. Let me get this straight. It didn't exist because it wasn't recognised by the UN, but now the UN recognise it, what the UN say has no validity? Is that what you are really saying?
 
Paul_Powers_Tash said:
I take it from your reply that you do not recognise the state of Palestine.
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No such country exists other than as a theoretical concept. Prior to 1917, the whole area was a small part of the Ottoman Empire, which also included the territory that later became Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan & Syria. It often surprises people to find that none of these places existed prior to that point. British forces under General Allenby defeated the occupying Turks in 1917 and took control of the former Ottoman territories. They carved out spheres of influence with the French nd divided the territory up to reward the various tribes that took part in T.E.Lawrence's Arab revolt. What was left was known as Palestine, which never had a local government and was never a separate state. There was a mixed population at that time being about 20% Jews and Christians and 80% Muslims.

Also in 1917, the British Government issued the Balfour Declaration, declaring that they were in favour of the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Israel (although not necessarily a state). Over the next 20 years, there were attempts to come to some agreement with the indigenous groups but these all failed to produce an agreement. As a result of Arab riots, the British government restricted Jewish immigration into the territory, even when the situation in Europe was getting quite desperate for many Jews.
That restriction was still in place in 1945, even when it was clear what had happened in Occupied Europe and there were thousands of displaced Jews who had nowhere else to go.

Further discussions took place and there was an Anglo-American Commission that recommended certain actions but the US and British governments each refused to agree to a key recommendation so the British handed responsibility back to the UN, which recommended partition, which was agreed by the General Assembly. The Jews accepted this, and declared a state when the Mandate expired but the Arab didn't and attacked the new state. The subsequent war set the pre-1967 boundaries, which were agreed as part of the armistice arrangement. What should have been Palestine, Gaza & the West Bank) was annexed by Egypt and Jordan respectively. They were still in occupation (which the Arab League declared illegal) in 1967, when a second war broke out after Egypt closed the Strait of Tiran and ordered out the UN peacekeeping force. Israel obviously won that war comprehensively and ended up occupying the Sinai, Gaza, the West Bank (including the Old City of Jerusalem) and the Golan Heights in Syria.

Between 1948 and 1967, Jordan could have handed over the West Bank to the Palestinians and Egypt could have done the same with Gaza. That would have given the Palestinians 100% of what they want. But that never happened as the Arab front line states never had any inclination to do that as they each wanted it for themselves. Each of them, particularly Egypt & Syria, had dreams of a Greater Egypt/Syria encompassing their own country and all that of the old Palestine mandate.

Even as we are today, the two parts have two different governments, one of which is a largely secular one, which does recognise the State of Israel and the other a decidedly Islamist one, which doesn't. So which is this state of Palestine?
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
No such country exists other than as a theoretical concept. Prior to 1917, the whole area was a small part of the Ottoman Empire, which also included the territory that later became Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan & Syria. It often surprises people to find that none of these places existed prior to that point. British forces under General Allenby defeated the occupying Turks in 1917 and took control of the former Ottoman territories. They carved out spheres of influence with the French nd divided the territory up to reward the various tribes that took part in T.E.Lawrence's Arab revolt. What was left was known as Palestine, which never had a local government and was never a separate state. There was a mixed population at that time being about 20% Jews and Christians and 80% Muslims.

Also in 1917, the British Government issued the Balfour Declaration, declaring that they were in favour of the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Israel (although not necessarily a state). Over the next 20 years, there were attempts to come to some agreement with the indigenous groups but these all failed to produce an agreement. As a result of Arab riots, the British government restricted Jewish immigration into the territory, even when the situation in Europe was getting quite desperate for many Jews.
That restriction was still in place in 1945, even when it was clear what had happened in Occupied Europe and there were thousands of displaced Jews who had nowhere else to go.

Further discussions took place and there was an Anglo-American Commission that recommended certain actions but the US and British governments each refused to agree to a key recommendation so the British handed responsibility back to the UN, which recommended partition, which was agreed by the General Assembly. The Jews accepted this, and declared a state when the Mandate expired but the Arab didn't and attacked the new state. The subsequent war set the pre-1967 boundaries, which were agreed as part of the armistice arrangement. What should have been Palestine, Gaza & the West Bank) was annexed by Egypt and Jordan respectively. They were still in occupation (which the Arab League declared illegal) in 1967, when a second war broke out after Egypt closed the Strait of Tiran and ordered out the UN peacekeeping force. Israel obviously won that war comprehensively and ended up occupying the Sinai, Gaza, the West Bank (including the Old City of Jerusalem) and the Golan Heights in Syria.

Between 1948 and 1967, Jordan could have handed over the West Bank to the Palestinians and Egypt could have done the same with Gaza. That would have given the Palestinians 100% of what they want. But that never happened as the Arab front line states never had any inclination to do that as they each wanted it for themselves. Each of them, particularly Egypt & Syria, had dreams of a Greater Egypt/Syria encompassing their own country and all that of the old Palestine mandate.

Even as we are today, the two parts have two different governments, one of which is a largely secular one, which does recognise the State of Israel and the other a decidedly Islamist one, which doesn't. So which is this state of Palestine?
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The State of Palestine does exist. As I've explained before it was recognised as a "non-member observer state" by the UN in 2012. It appears despite this fact some people still have their reasons not to recognise it. Did you recognise Switzerland in 2001?
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
No such country exists other than as a theoretical concept. Prior to 1917, the whole area was a small part of the Ottoman Empire, which also included the territory that later became Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan & Syria. It often surprises people to find that none of these places existed prior to that point. British forces under General Allenby defeated the occupying Turks in 1917 and took control of the former Ottoman territories. They carved out spheres of influence with the French nd divided the territory up to reward the various tribes that took part in T.E.Lawrence's Arab revolt. What was left was known as Palestine, which never had a local government and was never a separate state. There was a mixed population at that time being about 20% Jews and Christians and 80% Muslims.

Also in 1917, the British Government issued the Balfour Declaration, declaring that they were in favour of the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Israel (although not necessarily a state). Over the next 20 years, there were attempts to come to some agreement with the indigenous groups but these all failed to produce an agreement. As a result of Arab riots, the British government restricted Jewish immigration into the territory, even when the situation in Europe was getting quite desperate for many Jews.
That restriction was still in place in 1945, even when it was clear what had happened in Occupied Europe and there were thousands of displaced Jews who had nowhere else to go.

Further discussions took place and there was an Anglo-American Commission that recommended certain actions but the US and British governments each refused to agree to a key recommendation so the British handed responsibility back to the UN, which recommended partition, which was agreed by the General Assembly. The Jews accepted this, and declared a state when the Mandate expired but the Arab didn't and attacked the new state. The subsequent war set the pre-1967 boundaries, which were agreed as part of the armistice arrangement. What should have been Palestine, Gaza & the West Bank) was annexed by Egypt and Jordan respectively. They were still in occupation (which the Arab League declared illegal) in 1967, when a second war broke out after Egypt closed the Strait of Tiran and ordered out the UN peacekeeping force. Israel obviously won that war comprehensively and ended up occupying the Sinai, Gaza, the West Bank (including the Old City of Jerusalem) and the Golan Heights in Syria.

Between 1948 and 1967, Jordan could have handed over the West Bank to the Palestinians and Egypt could have done the same with Gaza. That would have given the Palestinians 100% of what they want. But that never happened as the Arab front line states never had any inclination to do that as they each wanted it for themselves. Each of them, particularly Egypt & Syria, had dreams of a Greater Egypt/Syria encompassing their own country and all that of the old Palestine mandate.

Even as we are today, the two parts have two different governments, one of which is a largely secular one, which does recognise the State of Israel and the other a decidedly Islamist one, which doesn't. So which is this state of Palestine?
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Very interesting and informative post PB.
 
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