Attacks in Paris

denislawsbackheel said:
France don't have multiculturism.
You come to France you accept French culture - end of - is there stance.
I support it but it has consequences.
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Nonsense.

Blame the French? The self reflection shouldn't be of the French.

The only responsibility for this act lies with the people who did it and their religious and political beliefs that inspired them.

Their sympathisers will be peddling out that very kind of rationale you've just used. Don't give it credence, it's fucking nonsense.
 
RichardDunneOwnGoal said:
Fucking scum.

And to think I was speculating that a stadium would be a prime target for these savages only last week.

Really don't realise how great a threat these scumbags and their sympathisers pose to our way of life.
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In real terms, they pose almost no threat to your way of life.
 
SWP's back said:
In real terms, they pose almost no threat to your way of life.
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Of course they do.

Besides the very real threat of terrorism our governments are becoming ever more draconian in an effort to combat them and said threat.

The world is changing.

When you think back now, there was a pre 9/11, and the world was never the same since.

This specific type of ideology is a very real threat to the free world. And it's causing us to slowly lose liberties we took for granted prior to 9/11.
 
This is where our special forces earn their money - infiltrate, collect intelligence, then hit them hard . However, it appears that these people can't be infiltrated, so what next?
 
RichardDunneOwnGoal said:
Of course they do.

Besides the very real threat of terrorism our governments are becoming ever more draconian in an effort to combat them and said threat.

The world is changing.

When you think back now, there was a pre 9/11, and the world was never the same since.

This specific type of ideology is a very real threat to the free world. And it's causing us to slowly lose liberties we took for granted prior to 9/11.
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There isn't a very real threat to your life at all.

147 terrorist deaths since 2000 in the UK. 25,000 deaths on the road in that time. That's 170x more deaths though road accidents. Do you fear for your life when you get in your car or get on a bus? The fear factor is the one thing that terrorism tried to push. But it's virtually none existent. There were 3,600 earths from falls in the uk last year, 99 on them being people falling out of bed. That's against none to terrorism. 35 people drowned in their own bath tubs in that 12 month period to give the numbers some perspective.

Things like 9/11, 21/7 and Paris last night are huge news and awful tragedies but they are not the norm and as I said, in real terms, your odds of dying in a terrorist attack in any one year are slightly less than winning the lottery.
 
RandomJ said:
Boots on the ground may not work in terms of defeating the ideology but surely we can destroy their infrastructure. You don't just pop down to your local B&Q to buy automatic weapons and suicide vests. These guys were highly trained in using the guns and explosives, they clearly have training camps, they clearly have weapon caches. We may not be able to bomb and shoot the ideology but we sure as hell can hit them in other places.
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We would have to disarm the whole of Africa, the Middle East and large chunks of Asia from India to Indonesia. It would be a fair effort and probably it would need an army many times the size we had in WW2 from all the allies. At the end we'd have to stay there as well to keep an eye. If only there was such a simple answer .
 
malg said:
This is where our special forces earn their money - infiltrate, collect intelligence, then hit them hard . However, it appears that these people can't be infiltrated, so what next?
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Oh they can be infiltrated, they wouldn't have got 'Jihadi John' without some help.

Its a fight like no other though, this is an organisation without borders and no real territory and instead plan their attacks by blending in in other countries and then attacking innocent civilians.

I'd say take out there known HQ's and find a way of getting the most powerful countries working together, i.e. we don't need Russia and the US having a dick measuring competition when something this serious is going on.
 
SWP's back said:
There isn't a very real threat to your life at all.

147 terrorist deaths since 2000 in the UK. 25,000 deaths on the road in that time. That's 170x more deaths though road accidents. Do you fear for your life when you get in your car or get on a bus? The fear factor is the one thing that terrorism tried to push. But it's virtually none existent. There were 3,600 earths from falls in the uk last year, 99 on them being people falling out of bed. That's against none to terrorism. 35 people drowned in their own bath tubs in that 12 month period to give the numbers some perspective.

Things like 9/11, 21/7 and Paris last night are huge news and awful tragedies but they are not the norm and as I said, in real terms, your odds of dying in a terrorist attack in any one year are slightly less than winning the lottery.
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It's right terrorism can never be more than a mosquito on a Blue Whale but if the mosquito can convince the Blue Whale that it is a serious threat to its life it can have a major major effect. Also reality is when you kill one person let alone 200 for everyone who knows that person you have attacked them. But all in all this is correct.
 
Ric said:
Precisely. It was "boots on the ground" in Iraq and Afghanistan that contributed to this situation.
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Way too often used as a cop out.

This kind of ideology was responsible for the deaths of 3000 Americans on 9/11. Long before there were any troops on the ground in Iraq or Afghanistan.

The sooner people turn the microscope on to Islam, and Wahabbism and Saudi Arabia in particular, the sooner the fundamental causes behind these acts of brutality will be closer to being addressed.

It's about time there was a wider debate on this, especially a Muslim led one.

Rather than the usual 'not all Muslims', 'the attackers aren't real Muslims', type dismissals that we'll get for a few weeks until it peters out and the next atrocity happens, when we can of course enjoy hearing the same old cop outs once more.

If the mainstream media and political centre left doesn't stop pretending there is no link to faith in this violence then all that will happen is that divisions within our societies will grow and so will the far right. And with that, the hate will flow on all sides, and become a self fulfilling prophecy with conflict inevitable.

As long as the mainstream are too cowardly to address the very real religious motivations behind these attacks, then there'll never be a solution.

It fucking shameful that the only people that have the courage to publicly address this particular aspect of the violence in this country are the far right.

And that's what's drawing people to them, because people aren't fucking stupid, they can see through the rhetoric. It's not all our fault, and it does have something to do with Islam.

It's a good thing to try not to alienate normal Muslims who don't support this, but the current state of play isn't sustainable, nothing is changing. Support for these kind of groups isn't going away, in fact, it seems to be increasing. And we as a society, need to reflect on why, and come up with solutions to address it - together.

Thank fuck we can all rely on the occasional thinker to speak out and brave the shitstorm to address this:

 
SWP's back said:
There isn't a very real threat to your life at all.

147 terrorist deaths since 2000 in the UK. 25,000 deaths on the road in that time. That's 170x more deaths though road accidents. Do you fear for your life when you get in your car or get on a bus? The fear factor is the one thing that terrorism tried to push. But it's virtually none existent. There were 3,600 earths from falls in the uk last year, 99 on them being people falling out of bed. That's against none to terrorism. 35 people drowned in their own bath tubs in that 12 month period to give the numbers some perspective.

Things like 9/11, 21/7 and Paris last night are huge news and awful tragedies but they are not the norm and as I said, in real terms, your odds of dying in a terrorist attack in any one year are slightly less than winning the lottery.
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I get mathematical probability mate.

But besides the fact that you're ignoring all the attacks foiled, what of all the repercussions that our society suffers as a consequence of this threat, and government attempts to address it, that can't be measured in numbers of deaths or a risk of fatality from a terrorist attack on a day to day basis?

The very fear of the threat is a consequence that cannot be overlooked either. Hence 'terrorism'.

We live in a security obsessed country now, and that's because of said threat.

It is changing our way of life.
 
A week ago this evening I went into town to see a band with my brother, that band was the Eagles of death metal at the Ritz. It was a night where a group of 5 entertained, were friendly and gave a great show, all the crowd were happy and enjoyed a great gig. That a week later people just like myself and other gig goers, in another city went out to have the same experience, but never went home is a truely heartbreaking thing.
 
Also, @SWP's back, I didn't suggest there was a very real threat to my life as an individual member of Joe public, as I said; I understand mathematical probability. I meant that there was a very real threat of terrorism to the UK, as a nation.

Which there is.

And I said that this kind of ideology that brought these attacks to Paris last night, and brought down that Russian airliner over Egypt last week, poses a very real threat to the free world. And the liberties we often took for granted prior to said threat.

Which it undoubtedly does.
 
Seemingly, no-one has claimed "responsibility" for these heinous crimes, although many commentators are suggesting that it is most likely to be IS or sympathisers of IS.

It would seem to me that attacking their stronghold or so-called State wouldnt stop issues like this straight out. Its about addressing the fundamental ideology that eminantes from IS and is perpetuated within the state. Surely however, a concerted attack on the state and the stonghold, targeted at their infrastructire would make it a lot harder for these coordinated attacks?

I dont know what to think really. It was a truly horrible feeling this morning. I went to bed as i started work early today, woke up and saw this. Its properly affected me today.

I just despair that this is going to feed into the hands of the far right, britain first etc, which is bizzarely what I think the lunatics behind these attacks want.
 
Just to illustrate how much this ideology and terrorism is effecting our societies. Look at the response to the Charlie Hebdo massacre.

The debate about our very right to free speech and freedom of the press was quickly hijacked and became a discussion on sensitivity towards Islam and the right of Muslims not to be offended.

French satirical cartoonists were murdered because they drew a cartoon. That should've been the end of the moral analysis.

Instead, it became yet another discussion about how terribly discriminatory our society is, again, how it is our society that is more or less at fault. How the cartoons were 'provocative'.

None of the British newspapers ran with the satirical cover cartoon of Muhammad to show solidarity. Sky News even cut a French journalist live off air when she held aloft the cover of Charlie Hedbo when she was discussing the attacks.

Our society's response was one of great grief and horror at the attacks, but an unwillingness to stand up for the very freedoms we hold dear.

Instead, the right not to be offended won out, as did the fear of violence. Violent religious bigots sought to impose their religious blasphemy laws over our liberty valuing free societies, and we more or less gave them what they wanted out of cowardice.

I repeat: this ideology poses a threat to our way of life.
 
I have just had someone say to me that they are worried about an attack at Old Toilet and they really feel that it is inevitable because of the rags high profile around the world and the fact they have jewish owners, Plus security at the swamp is poor and they are used to people walking in carrying bags that are never searched .

I am not aware if the Glazers are jewish or not but the high profile point is worrying. imagine the coverage if a suicide bomber detonated a device in the crowd during a live match the carnage and crushes during the panic would make the news worldwide. the death toll could be massive.

I had never really thought about it but it is slightly worrying. I suppose this sort of event in England is going to occur at some point.
 
kas_tippler said:
With people prepared to blow themselves up its a battle we cannot win.
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We just have to let our security services continue to do a great job. Also any time a family member disappears to fight for Isis Etc we come down on that family and associates like a tonne of bricks to ensure the extremism cancer is not spreading. There should also be more policing of extremist mosques and use of the Internet. Harsher jail sentences for support of extremists and education programmes in Muslim schools.
 
softlad said:
Seemingly, no-one has claimed "responsibility" for these heinous crimes, although many commentators are suggesting that it is most likely to be IS or sympathisers of IS.

It would seem to me that attacking their stronghold or so-called State wouldnt stop issues like this straight out. Its about addressing the fundamental ideology that eminantes from IS and is perpetuated within the state. Surely however, a concerted attack on the state and the stonghold, targeted at their infrastructire would make it a lot harder for these coordinated attacks?

I dont know what to think really. It was a truly horrible feeling this morning. I went to bed as i started work early today, woke up and saw this. Its properly affected me today.

I just despair that this is going to feed into the hands of the far right, britain first etc, which is bizzarely what I think the lunatics behind these attacks want.
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After some big set backs with their chief propaganda weapon Jihadi John, Sinjar falling and some big hits in Syria you would have to assume it is ISIS related in some way. I think you are right there is not a lot of ideological difference between extremists on all sides and the far right will be delighted at this opportunity. I suspect claims aren't made as now these things are becoming fragmented to make infiltration hard
 
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