Attacks in Paris

Gelsons Dad said:
I agree with all of this. One of the biggest mistakes governments are making at the moment is trying to distance IS from Islam. No one is saying normal moderate Muslims are bad but when for example 27% of the UK Muslim population express some sympathy for the Charlie Hebdo attackers it is just plain ridiculous to claim the IS have nothing to do with Islam.
I've said it many times and will continue to do so. The answer to the current conflict is not to be found in the battlefield of Syria or Iraq. The answer is in the Mosques of all the towns in the free world where the Imams must preach a moderate interpretation of Islam which is compatible with western life and must campaign loudly against all the radical Islamic voices. The Muslim council of Britain issued a low key press statement after Fridays attack. They and all the Imams should have been all over the media condemning the atrocities.
We must contain IS but we must insist that Islam reforms itself. I have little faith that Islam will but it should be given the chance.
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You clearly don't speak to UK Muslims or, of course, visit Mosques. I really can't be bothered with debating your bigoted views. Two million UK Muslims living as law-abiding British Citizens do the talking for me.
 
coleridge said:
You clearly don't speak to UK Muslims or, of course, visit Mosques. I really can't be bothered with debating your bigoted views. Two million UK Muslims living as law-abiding British Citizens do the talking for me.
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Its so lazy to call him a bigot. I heard a Muslim say pretty much the same thing as Gelsons Dad - in terms of closing down hard-line radical preachers in mosques on the radio only last night. Also there is a problem with child grooming in the Muslim Community which is evident in recent cases in Rochdale and Rotherham.

I would also add 27% of the prison population in London are Muslims.
 
coleridge said:
You need to calm down. What Chakrabati says is what our fathers fought for, i.e., against Fascism and NOT to become another Fascist state.
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You don't get it do you. I'm not talking about a Fascist state, I'm talking about the right to go to a match, go out for a meal, or a rock concert, maybe even travel on the tube without getting shot, stabbed, blown up. Unfortunately these rights are not just given, they have to be fought for as our fathers did. To do this, and again I say unfortunately, the security services need to be given the tools to try and prevent this, mainly through intelligence gathering and that probably includes more intrusion into all our lives. It's the price we have to pay and it's gonna get worse. Some of those attackers were on the French cops radar but were left free, 1 had jumped bail , that Belgian district was a free for all, even their minister admitted that, says they will have to tighten up. The French President has already extended emergency powers for another 2 months and strangely enough nobody in liberty loving France has objected. Like I say, all this is too late for 129 innocent people.
 
bucks said:
You don't get it do you. I'm not talking about a Fascist state, I'm talking about the right to go to a match, go out for a meal, or a rock concert, maybe even travel on the tube without getting shot, stabbed, blown up. Unfortunately these rights are not just given, they have to be fought for as our fathers did. To do this, and again I say unfortunately, the security services need to be given the tools to try and prevent this, mainly through intelligence gathering and that probably includes more intrusion into all our lives. It's the price we have to pay and it's gonna get worse. Some of those attackers were on the French cops radar but were left free, 1 had jumped bail , that Belgian district was a free for all, even their minister admitted that, says they will have to tighten up. The French President has already extended emergency powers for another 2 months and strangely enough nobody in liberty loving France has objected. Like I say, all this is too late for 129 innocent people.
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If they had the evidence that you are alluding to, they can easily go to the court for a search warrant and search the house. Or maybe they waited to see if any bigger fish could be caught but the terrorists moved quicker. who knows.
 
coleridge said:
No. Murder is un-Islamic. Neither is there the corollary that you suggest that there is with Judaism. True Islam is the Ummah, the one nation under God. The emphasis on 'sects' and territory is a very Judeo-Christian interpretation. The current failure to understand Islam is quite apparent.
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As a poster whose views I normally treat with the greatest respect I have to say I think that's a very naive and defensive view. No one is disputing that a majority of Muslims agree with your view. But the fact is that a minority choose to interpret the Koran in a very different way and feel they can justify that. Your Imam may well have a sensible view but there is no central authority in Islam and any recognised scholar can issue a fatwa.

To deny that there aren't a number of groupings in Islam and that it's really one big happy family is delusional. There are some whole groups declared takfir, such as the Ahmadi and Zikri.
 
Gelsons Dad said:
I agree with all of this. One of the biggest mistakes governments are making at the moment is trying to distance IS from Islam. No one is saying normal moderate Muslims are bad but when for example 27% of the UK Muslim population express some sympathy for the Charlie Hebdo attackers it is just plain ridiculous to claim the IS have nothing to do with Islam.
I've said it many times and will continue to do so. The answer to the current conflict is not to be found in the battlefield of Syria or Iraq. The answer is in the Mosques of all the towns in the free world where the Imams must preach a moderate interpretation of Islam which is compatible with western life and must campaign loudly against all the radical Islamic voices. The Muslim council of Britain issued a low key press statement after Fridays attack. They and all the Imams should have been all over the media condemning the atrocities.
We must contain IS but we must insist that Islam reforms itself. I have little faith that Islam will but it should be given the chance.


Thought I would add one of those annoying quotes just to finish off:
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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The Muslim council released a press statement, the press decided how prominant and how much of the message gets delivered. Any chance the Archbishop of England can condemn christians in the US from shooting kids?

Why not ask the fundamental christians in the US to reform their view of christianity and stop bombing the shit out of everywhere and arming this week's ME mates, which will be next week's terror group.
 
coleridge said:
No. Murder is un-Islamic. Neither is there the corollary that you suggest that there is with Judaism. True Islam is the Ummah, the one nation under God. The emphasis on 'sects' and territory is a very Judeo-Christian interpretation. The current failure to understand Islam is quite apparent.
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Didn't Muhammed order numerous people to be killed?
 
KenTheLandlord said:
The Muslim council released a press statement, the press decided how prominant and how much of the message gets delivered. Any chance the Archbishop of England can condemn christians in the US from shooting kids?

Why not ask the fundamental christians in the US to reform their view of christianity and stop bombing the shit out of everywhere and arming this week's ME mates, which will be next week's terror group.
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What has any of that got to do with this debate? Why not stick to the topic.
 
KenTheLandlord said:
facebook post mate, not all can see them
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That's the only link I had.

Well, I must move on from this thread. Predictably, we now have those that have/think they have something to gain from (1) Slagging off all Muslims in general and/or (2) Trying to persuade us that murderers are merely being good Muslims. That's when it all becomes pointless to debate.
 
coleridge said:
That's the only link I had.

Well, I must move on from this thread. Predictably, we now have those that have/think they have something to gain from (1) Slagging off all Muslims in general and/or (2) Trying to persuade us that murderers are merely being good Muslims. That's when it all becomes pointless to debate.
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People aren't slagging off Muslims in general or persuading others that murdering is good. They are saying that calling IS non Muslim is bullshit. Yes not all Muslims are extremist but for you to say that IS are not Muslims is very naive. Everything they do is based on their interpretation of the Quran
 
Gelsons Dad said:
What has any of that got to do with this debate? Why not stick to the topic.
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Because it highlights the ridiculousness of your post. They are fair questions and on topic.

The Muslim council released a press statement, the press decided how prominent and how much of the message gets delivered. You said it was low key, it is out of their hands.
Any chance the Archbishop of England can condemn christians in the US from shooting kids? You said They and all the Imams should have been all over the media condemning the atrocities. I am asking where is the balance? They are different types of atrocities yet you never see the christian leaders asking the governments to stop blowing the shit out of Muslim kids. What's your reason for the double standard?

Why not ask the fundamental christians in the US to reform their view of christianity and stop bombing the shit out of everywhere and arming this week's ME mates, which will be next week's terror group. You said We must contain IS but we must insist that Islam reforms itself. I have little faith that Islam will but it should be given the chance. Why not ask the christian governments such as the US the UK and France to stop arming the these groups and attacking that religion?
 
Paulmcfc2703 said:
People aren't slagging off Muslims in general or persuading others that murdering is good. They are saying that calling IS non Muslim is bullshit. Yes not all Muslims are extremist but for you to say that IS are not Muslims is very naive. Everything they do is based on their interpretation of the Quran
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I am not naive. IS are mercenaries and criminals. The IRA weren't following a form of catholic doctrine, were they?
 
coleridge said:
That's the only link I had.

Well, I must move on from this thread. Predictably, we now have those that have/think they have something to gain from (1) Slagging off all Muslims in general and/or (2) Trying to persuade us that murderers are merely being good Muslims. That's when it all becomes pointless to debate.
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Fair point but it is a shame as you have brought some good points to the thread.
 
coleridge said:
I am not naive. IS are mercenaries and criminals. The IRA weren't following a form of catholic doctrine, were they?
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What are you on about? The IRA were trying to remove British Rule from Ireland. It was more about national identity. Turns out you are not naive, just ill informed
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
As a poster whose views I normally treat with the greatest respect I have to say I think that's a very naive and defensive view. No one is disputing that a majority of Muslims agree with your view. But the fact is that a minority choose to interpret the Koran in a very different way and feel they can justify that. Your Imam may well have a sensible view but there is no central authority in Islam and any recognised scholar can issue a fatwa.

To deny that there aren't a number of groupings in Islam and that it's really one big happy family is delusional. There are some whole groups declared takfir, such as the Ahmadi and Zikri.
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The central authority is the Qu'uran. Hierarchy is only recognisable in Shias, and hence fatwas, which anyone can disagree with anyway, as I do. You make the mistake of giving credit to a 'sect' of belief and some grand organisation. In reality, there are merely small gangs of criminals, such as the few hundred that broke out of Abu Ghraib and set up 'IS'.
Anyway, he's not 'my Imam'. He's the Deputy Chief Imam for the Manchester Council of Mosques and has had many of his sermons televised on the BBC, Sky and elsewhere this year. I suppose that that just shows how little attention the majority voice gets. Doesn't sell many arms, I suppose.
 
Paulmcfc2703 said:
What are you on about? The IRA were trying to remove British Rule from Ireland. It was more about national identity. Turns out you are not naive, just ill informed
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Ill informed that the IRA claimed to be Catholics? I was born and raised with the South Manchester Irish. They taught me Provo songs. Shall I sing some for you?

Your indignation is quite revealing though.
 
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