Attacks in Paris

It's not that ambiguous. PB has definitely misread the post, it's clear as day to me what he meant.
Perhaps I did but the point remains exactly the same. If there were a group of people doing such a thing would we say it was a problem with them or the religion in general? Let's take groups like the Westboro Baptist Church and the Free Presbytarian Church of Ulster as an example. Their hatred for gays derives directly from the bible but should Christianity as a whole be blamed for them or are they just oddballs who selectively interpret things to suit their twisted view of the world?
 
You seriously think Muslims in the name of Islam have killed more people than Christians in the last thirty or forty years.?
Why are the same questions not asked of fundamentalism in the US which has murdered millions.
Imposed sanctions on countries which have seen them in a permanent state of emergency and continue to arm anyone who will pretend to fight their enemies.
Why have ISIS got American humvees and weapons?

Sam Harris is an utter tit who has been hammered in too many discussions. An absolute shit stain on political debate.
Ah, the most fundamentalist religion of them all. The Arms Trade.
 
I'd broadly agree and don't want to get into a historical debate. However, I'd say that Hamas and Hezbollah regard themselves as freedom fighters. The Taliban are an expression of the [most fundamental of] cultural expression of the Pushtun tribal nation [the largest in the world]. Al Qaeda was formed to drive the US out of the holy lands of Saudi after almost a century of undue. I know you won't agree but that's what they think.

I''d only say that fundamentalist Islam is a useful platform for the likes of ISIS and Boko Haram as, much like the IRA/UDA, it allows them to seized power, control and so money. I can only re-iterate that they are all criminals and mercenaries.
I'd pretty well agree with all of that as it's exactly what I was trying to say.
 
The foundations are based in human nature and not religion. If it wasn't Islam it would be something else, but continue sticking your head in the sand and blaming an abstract idea if it keeps you happy.

You're a little muddled here, pal..

I get the premise of what you're trying to say but it's all a little back to front..

Indoctrination forms a cognitive process, that isn't a result of human nature, it's a forced principle!!!
 
It is re-assuring that you would act just as I would expect any right thinking person would if aware of a potential plot or cell, I however remain unconvinced that that enough muslims would follow you're lead. There isn't any suggestion from me that there is a muslim conspiracy, indeed I believe the vast majority of Muslims would probably follow you're lead but for me its inconceivable to believe that every muslim is doing their bit to report suspicious or radical behaviour be that in a mosque or community centre or wherever and herein lies a massive problem. For the record (given I abhor and therefore avoid extremist groups of any denomination) I can't imagine how I would hear of any EDL plot, but I too would report what I heard if I did become privy to information. That said I can't remember the last time the EDL burst into a mosque, a shisha joint or similar yelling Jesus saves and proceed to indiscriminately murder the occupants.
You seem to believe that there is a grand conspiracy by Muslim communities to destroy the very societies that they live in. I'm afraid that if that is so, I cannot assist you any further.
 
You're a little muddled here, pal..

I get the premise of what you're trying to say but it's all a little back to front..

Indoctrination forms a cognitive process, that isn't a result of human nature, it's a forced principle!!!
This is all getting a little too deep. You could say that culture is indoctrination, the former going back centuries. Forced principle or absorbed mindset?
 
Perhaps I did but the point remains exactly the same. If there were a group of people doing such a thing would we say it was a problem with them or the religion in general? Let's take groups like the Westboro Baptist Church and the Free Presbytarian Church of Ulster as an example. Their hatred for gays derives directly from the bible but should Christianity as a whole be blamed for them or are they just oddballs who selectively interpret things to suit their twisted view of the world?

As a, lapsed, Christian I view the unsavoury aspects of the religion with as much disdain as the unsavoury aspects of all other religions. Also, let's not forget that the Catholic church has had an almighty slating in recent years over the scandal surrounding paedophile priests - I didn't see many people absolving Catholicism itself of the blame when that all came to light and saying it was nothing to do with the religion. If anything it was the opposite.
 
This is all getting a little too deep. You could say that culture is indoctrination, the former going back centuries. Forced principle or absorbed mindset?

like mine and most people on this forum with regards our following of the club we support
my objection is indoctrination(especially children) into something that quite possibly does not exist at all
 
There's no 'may' about it mate, it's fact.

See for yourself, deaths by terrorism these year via Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2015

Also, I never added a prefix that it was "Islam vs the rest", only that it was violence with a religious motivation. Of which Islam is responsible for the most deaths, this isn't disputable. And yes, most of those deaths will be Muslims killing other Muslims. Still a problem - no?



True. But it's 2015AD. We're talking about the present. This all too often serves as a whataboutism for people to gloss over the reality of the scale of this religious violence in the present day. You're right to point out that the separation of church and state is something that was key to Christianity's moderation, but how far are we really from seeing that become more commonplace in the wider Middle East? Especially when this seems to be in direct opposition to many Muslims' beliefs that man made laws are unworthy when there is Sharia, God's law, as per the Koran?

This regression into deeply religious social conservatism is what seems to be culpable for a lot of the violence.



No one is implying that the violence is taking place because Muslims are inherently violent. They're not being violent because they're Muslim.

The violence is often motivated by religious belief however, this is inescapable. Religion often goes hand in hand with a political goal. They often meet nicely to serve one another.

None of the groups you highlighted are secular groups, religion is central to their goal, it runs parallel to their political goal.

They're all divided along sectarian lines also. And thus their religious beliefs differ, and their political goals, this is no coincidence.
Here is a list of terrorist organisations (correct as of August 2014):
Abdullah Azzam Brigades
Abu Nidal Organization
Abu Sayyaf
Aden-Abyan Islamic Army
Ajnad Misr
Akhil Bharat Nepali Ekta Samaj
al-Aqsa Foundation
al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades
Al-Badr
al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya
Al Ghurabaa
al-Haramain Foundation
Al-Itihaad al-Islamiya
Al-Mourabitoun
Al-Nusra Front
al-Qaeda
al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula
al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb
Al-Shabaab
Takfir wal-Hijra
Al-Umar-Mujahideen
All Tripura Tiger Force
Ansar al-Sharia (Libya)
Ansar al-Sharia (Tunisia)
Ansar al-Islam
Jamaat Ansar al-Sunna
Ansar Bait al-Maqdis
Ansar Dine
Ansaru
Armed Islamic Group of Algeria
Army of Islam
Army of the Men of the Naqshbandi Order
Osbat al-Ansar
Aum Shinrikyo
Babbar Khalsa International
Balochistan Liberation Army
Boko Haram
Caucasus Emirate
Comite' de Blenfaisance et de Solidarite' avec la Plestine
Communist Party of India (Marxist–Leninist)
Communist Party of the Philippines/
New People's Army
Communist Party of Turkey/Marxist–Leninist
Conspiracy of Fire Nuclei
Continuity Irish Republican Army
Cumann na mBan
Deendar Anjuman
Donetsk People's Republic
Dukhtaran-e-Millat
East Turkestan Information Center
East Turkestan Islamic Party
East Turkestan Liberation Organization
Egyptian Islamic Jihad
Ergenekon
ETA
Fianna Éireann
Force 17
Great Eastern Islamic Raiders' Front
Grey Wolves
Hamas
Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades
Haqqani network
Harkat-ul-Jihad al-Islami
Harkat-al-Jihad al-Islami in Bangladesh
Harkat-ul-Mujahideen
Harakat-Ul-Mujahideen/Alami
Harakat Sham al-Islam
Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin
Hezbollah
Kurdish Hezbollah
Hezbollah (Military Wing)
Hezbollah (External Security Organisation)

Hezbollah Al-Hejaz
Hilafet Devleti
Hizb ut-Tahrir
Hizbul Mujahideen
Hofstad Network
Holy Land Foundation
for Relief and Development

Houthis
Indian Mujahideen
International Sikh Youth Federation
Irish National Liberation Army
Irish People's Liberation Organisation
Islamic Jihad
Jamaat Mujahideen
Islamic Jihad Union
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan
Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant
Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant – Caucasus Province
Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant – Khorasan Province
Jaish-e-Mohammed
Jaish al-Muhajireen wal-Ansar
Jamaat Ul-Furquan
Jamaat-ul-Ahrar
Jamaat-ul-Mujahideen Bangladesh
Jamiat al-Islah al-Idzhtimai
Jamiat ul-Ansar
Jamiat-e Islami
Jemaah Islamiyah
Jamaah Ansharut Tauhid
Jund al-Aqsa
Jund al-Khilafah
Jund al-Sham
Jundallah
Kach and Kahane Chai
Kangleipak Communist Party
Kanglei Yawol Kanna Lup
Kata'ib Hezbollah
Khalistan Commando Force
Khalistan Zindabad Force
Khuddam ul-Islam
Komalah
Kurdistan Democratic Party/North
Kurdistan Freedom Falcons
Kurdistan Workers' Party
Lashkar-e-Taiba
Lashkar-e-Jhangvi
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam
Libyan Islamic Fighting Group
Loyalist Volunteer Force
Lugansk People's Republic
Manipur People’s Liberation Front
Maoist Communist Centre of India
Marxist–Leninist Communist Party
Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group
Movement for Oneness and Jihad in West Africa
Mujahideen Indonesian Timur
Mujahideen Shura Council in the Environs of Jerusalem
Muslim Brotherhood
National Democratic Front of Bodoland
National Liberation Army
National Liberation Front of Tripura
Orange Volunteers
Palestine al-muslima
Palestine Liberation Front
Palestinian Islamic Jihad
Palestinian Relief Development Fund – Interpal
Party of Free Life of Kurdistan
People's Congress of Ichkeria and Dagestan
People's Liberation Army of Manipur
People's Mujahedin of Iran
People's Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine – General Command
Provisional Irish Republican Army
Quds Force
Real Irish Republican Army
Red Hand Commando
Red Hand Defenders
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia
Revolutionary Organization 17 November
Revolutionary Party of Kurdistan
Revolutionary People's Liberation Party–Front
Revolutionary Struggle
Saor Éire
The Saved Sect
Tevhid-Selam (Al-Quds Army)
Shining Path
Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan
Society of the Revival of Islamic Heritage
Stichting Al Aqsa
Students Islamic Movement of India
Supreme Military Majlis ul-Shura of the United Mujahideen Forces of Caucasus
Taliban
Tehreek-e-Nafaz-e-Shariat-e-Mohammadi
Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan
Tamil Nadu Liberation Army
Tamil National Retrieval Troops
Tanzim
Ulster Defence Association
Ulster Volunteer Force
United Liberation Front of Assam
United National Liberation Front
United Self-Defense Forces of Colombia
Vanguards of Conquest
World Tamil Movement
World Uygur Youth Congress

Okay, there could easily be some Latin American drug cartels on there as well but just look at how many Islamic ones there are. I've mentioned it before, but that link Ducado provided the other day was written by a Muslim Scholar saying that Sharia law is there written in Islam and champions Jihad.
 
This is all getting a little too deep. You could say that culture is indoctrination, the former going back centuries. Forced principle or absorbed mindset?

Is it really that deep though??? I've actually enjoyed this thread thus far, in any atrocities lessons have to be learned, debated and one can hope to be educated...

I believe aguero is an accountant? Aren't you a solicitor?? Well as someone from the behavioural science sector, I'm merely giving an expert opinion.... It's isn't deep, however, it could be (:

Anyway, one love!!!!!
 
The foundations are based in human nature and not religion. If it wasn't Islam it would be something else, but continue sticking your head in the sand and blaming an abstract idea if it keeps you happy.
That is very true, but doesn't change the fact that many of these are based on reigion. Look at the Turkey v Greece minutes silence the other night. A proposed minute of respect to the French (and other nationalities) killed in Paris and some of the crowd were chanting "God is great" and whistling and booing.
 
You seem to believe that there is a grand conspiracy by Muslim communities to destroy the very societies that they live in. I'm afraid that if that is so, I cannot assist you any further.

"There isn't any suggestion from me that there is a muslim conspiracy, indeed I believe the vast majority of Muslims would probably follow you're lead" (in shopping militants)

I assume you didn't read that sentence and have just made you're mind up on me being some kind of islamaphobic white supremacist?

Been cool chatting with you bro
 
You can agree because you've just said the same as he has. That some choose to interpret the Koran in a way that they feel entitles them to kill anyone who doesn't fully accept their view.

I could go through the Old Testament and find violent passages that I could use to justify killing other people. God raining fire & brimstone on Sodom & Gomorrah for one. So if I wander through the Gay Village with a flame-thrower immolating gay and lesbian people, I'm really carrying out god's will. Would you place the blame for that on the Judaeo-Christian philosophy or me being a nutter? God commands the Israelites to wipe out the Amalekites down to the last man, woman and child. So let's nuke Gaza because that's what it says in the bible so must be fine. Etc.

The simple fact you can't seem to grasp is that 99.9% of Muslims don't go round murdering people in the name of religion. 0.1% do. The problem is with the 0.1%, not the other 99.9%.
Both.

Look at the religious rallies that turn up in America with the placards damning homosexuality at Gay Pride events. Okay they aren't killing them, but it's the same message from the same type of book read by nutters (just of a lesser extreme).
 
That is very true, but doesn't change the fact that many of these are based on reigion. Look at the Turkey v Greece minutes silence the other night. A proposed minute of respect to the French (and other nationalities) killed in Paris and some of the crowd were chanting "God is great" and whistling and booing.

It couldn't be more untrue...
 
Summary of recent events

St Denis Raid 18/11/15


3rd Floor Apartment, 8 Rue du Corbillon
Run down little side road off Boulevard Carnat. All old buildings except the large school which is new Flat fronted non descript tatty terraces 3 or 4 stories. No 8 is about half way down. Film on Telegraph site shows it right next to the Tropical fish place on the Rue Republique end. Shooting seemed to be at Rue Republique end. No Google maps street view up there

Boulevard Carnat & Rue de Republique are quite smart and former has a tram line on it.
Hard to place any pictures etc but none are in Rue Corbillon. Except 1700 pic of building.

1) Police and army raid started 0425 and continued until about 1130. Main shooting finished around 0930. Police fired 5000 rounds. Building now close to collapse. 2 adjacent flats raided.
2) Problem breaking through armoured door which gave terrorists time to prepare.
3) 5 policemen shot and slightly injured and 1 police dog called Diesel has been killed
4) 1 woman dead – suicide bomber in the apartment c. Cousin of Abdul Abaaoud. Hasna Aitboulahcen She has been watched for several days in belief she was sheltering him. Born 12/8/89 Clichy-la-Garenne
5) 1 man killed in flat who was wanted in connection with the attacks. Hit by grenade and bullets. Likely to be Abaaoud.
6) 3 men in appartment arrested
7) 2 arrested – found in rubble
8) 2 arrested outside. 1 man and 1 woman. They were nearby talking to press (it was reported but not confirmed) when arrested. Part of his video interview out now
Jawad ben Dow. He says a friend asked him to put up 2 friends for a few days. They want only to pray and to have water. He didn’t know they were terrorists. Woman said she stayed there 2 weeks ago. It is like a squat. 2 strangers arrived 2 days ago
9) 2 of 7 went to hospital and 1 has been released. Other still in hospital
10) But 8 arrested in total. Extra one was found injured in road.
11) Abdulhamid Abaaoud not among arrested.

Also

1) Picture of 1 black guy handcuffed. And someone arrested by C&A store Rue Auguste Blanqui – about 300 yards away. Up Boulevard Carnot towards Basilica
2) Video of man being pulled out of building. he has a blood stained shirt on but no trousers etc, but also 1 with no clothes at all. On Rue de Republique near La Grappe D’or Brasserie no 93 Corner of Rue Catulienne
3) Video of 1 other – clothed – being pulled out of building. He isn’t anyone whose picture has been released.
4) Both came from a building with a blue awning over the door – and that cannot be 8 Rue Corbillion
5) There were at least 7 explosions (stun grenades in the main?) and then at least 1.5 hours of sustained gunfire
6) Telephone intelligence and eye witness accounts suggested alleged mastermind Abdul Hamid Abaaoud was in there. In fact he was and he is the dead man
7) They now reckon the cell were planning an attack on Place de la Defense and Charles de Gaulle Airport, and this is most likely given suicide belts, amount of ammo, Kalshnikovs etc. “Total war arsenal”
8) Police broke down side door of a church St Denis de l’Estree but came out 15mins later with nothing. No info why raid done. About 400 yrds away down Rue Republique past McDonalds
9) French police have issued an alert re Abdesalam Salah who they think has made off in a Citroen Xsara
10) 5 Syrians on doctored Greek passports detained in Honduras on way to Washington via Guatmala City. Immigration’s suspicions were confirmed when a Greek diplomat pronounced none of them spoke a word of Greek
11) In Marseille a Jewish teacher stabbed 3 times by 3 Deash flag wielding men. Injuries not life threatening
 
Is it really that deep though??? I've actually enjoyed this thread thus far, in any atrocities lessons have to be learned, debated and one can hope to be educated...

I believe aguero is an accountant? Aren't you a solicitor?? Well as someone from the behavioural science sector, I'm merely giving an expert opinion.... It's isn't deep, however, it could be (:

Anyway, one love!!!!!
Being called a solicitor is the rudest thing that I have read on this thread. ;)
 
That is very true, but doesn't change the fact that many of these are based on reigion. Look at the Turkey v Greece minutes silence the other night. A proposed minute of respect to the French (and other nationalities) killed in Paris and some of the crowd were chanting "God is great" and whistling and booing.

I don't need to look at that game I was about 40 yards away from some Bosnian idiots doing the same on Monday night.
 
That is very true, but doesn't change the fact that many of these are based on reigion. Look at the Turkey v Greece minutes silence the other night. A proposed minute of respect to the French (and other nationalities) killed in Paris and some of the crowd were chanting "God is great" and whistling and booing.

PB's got a point though.

We don't blame Christianity for the massacre in Waco, Texas, or for Peter Sutcliffe's killing spree supposedly inspired by God. We don't denounce Marxism for the atrocities committed by the Red Brigade or the Baader Meinhof gang in the 1970s. (We don't even blame Liverpool Football Club for the fact that a City coach was bricked on the Hillsborough anniversary.) There is undoubtedly a theological basis within Islam for the actions perpetrated by ISIS but plainly it is a matter of interpretation that only a small minority of actual Moslems adopt. Given that the overwhelming majority of Moslems reject that particular interpretation I struggle with the idea that the blame lies with the faith rather than the crackpots and sociopaths who adhere to their own distorted interpretation of it.

The point, by the by, that it is a question of interpretation can be demonstrated simply. One of worsley web's favourite tenets of Islam as practised by ISIS is the ban on women drivers (Ho-Ho, cue jokes about women being unable to drive, etc etc). But which bit of the Koran does that actually feature in? I'm no islamic scholar, but given that the Koran was written about 1300 years before the invention of the motor car, I would be surprised to see any specific reference to women driving cars in there. So the practice adopted by ISIS cannot be the literal application of the koran, it is by definition a more recent interpretation that is understood by some to be consistent with the teachings of the Koran.

(Sorry KC, I'm not having a go at you or disagreeing with you particularly, its just that your post seemed a good platform to add this point to the debate.)
 

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