From Don Revie to Pep

[Shaelumstash]

https://www.redbulletin.com/uk/en/sports/pep-guardiola-the-best-football-manager-in-the-world

In the article above it references how Guardiola is not a creator, he's an innovator. It says how the "False 9" position was invented by Hungary in the 1950's, and Pep simply reinvented it a few years back when he started playing Messi in the middle.

The reason for the thread is, I'd like to ask a question of older Blues. An older blue who goes in my local always gets misty eyed talking about the City team in the 50s, Trautman was his idol. He told me once about Don Revie playing for City, he said he was one of the best players in the country at the time.

The story he told me was that City's manager at the time had seen that famous Hungary team and he adopted the same system at City. We basically played with no centre forward, and Revie played as an "inside forward" or whatever the term was at the time. It was essentially what would now be called a "False 9" position.

The old timer said they tried it in a reserve game and got battered, but then they started playing it more regularly, and went on to be successful (I'm not sure if that's how the FA Cup winning team played) and Revie was outstanding in the role.

I was just wondering if any older blues / people interested in the history of the club had heard a similar story? I'd be very interested to hear more. It's seemingly a great link that we may have been the first European club side to use this system, and the best manager in the world who arrives next summer may have been inadvertidly influenced by a City side from 60 odd years ago.

 

[dtharrison]

This is basically true was Les Mc Dowells brainchild
Strangely they called it the Revie plan

 

[Rolee]

Some cracking posts in this thread which you may like

http://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/threads/don-revie-a-manchester-city-legend.148070/

 

[Bentheblue]

Yeah that's about right. Revie was the guy used in a deep lying centre forwad role, so it was named after him. The formation was used in the 1956 final although from what I can remember there was some doubt about whether or not he would play in the final. He did and helped us win.
It is also true that when it was first tried in a reserve game we lost, I think 6-0, a guy call Mac something played in the Revie role.

 

[Gordyola]

The vital component in The Revie Plan wasn't Revie but Ken Barnes who made it work Ken was a very elegant footballer and Revie insisted that for it to work Ken had to be in the team

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

The vital component in The Revie Plan wasn't Revie but Ken Barnes who made it work Ken was a very elegant footballer and Revie insisted that for it to work Ken had to be in the team

That is it! I think I read also that Revie only came into the 56 Cup Final team as a second thought! My first match at Maine Road was City v Blackpool. 2-0 to City and Revie got one! Jeez, those tangerine shirts were summat!!

 

[kenny1312]

My old man tells me it was Johnny Williamson who they tried it out on in the reserves. Not a bad player but no Don Revie. He agrees with kramer, he says it was Ken Barnes who made it work.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Thanks so much to everyone who replied, really interesting that City were doing things 60 years ago that would be seen as revolutionary today. Afterall, we have no history! ;-)

As an obsessive student of the game, I hope someone points this out to Pep on his arrival, I'm sure he'd be interested in it.

Out of interest, all of the posters mentioning Ken Barnes, what was his role in that team, and how did he make it work?

 

[coleridge]

My old man tells me it was Johnny Williamson who they tried it out on in the reserves. Not a bad player but no Don Revie. He agrees with kramer, he says it was Ken Barnes who made it work.

GOD BLESS KEN. Met him a few times along with Peter. He was a an absolute gentleman. Another great city player ignored by the 'istree brigade. Fuck 'em all. Our story marches on.

 

[I'm no cynic but...]

I've mentioned this before but in the possible absence of Aguero if injury should strike again then I think that Yaya could see out his City career in a false 9 role. Without the shackles of a midfield 'holding' role and without the work of the Silva role too, he could cause havoc amongst opposition defences as they wouldn't know whether to mark him or not with a CB, or without marking him from a midfield player relieved of his own attacking duties. In a system where Yaya is employed in only the last third of the field and devoid of high intensity input, Pellegrini could build a balanced team behind Yaya, leaving Yaya with only the creative side of his game to concentrate on.

 

[petrusha]

Thanks so much to everyone who replied, really interesting that City were doing things 60 years ago that would be seen as revolutionary today. Afterall, we have no history! ;-)

As an obsessive student of the game, I hope someone points this out to Pep on his arrival, I'm sure he'd be interested in it.

Out of interest, all of the posters mentioning Ken Barnes, what was his role in that team, and how did he make it work?

This is Ken talking about how the system came about. He says that we didn't try to imitate the Hungarians but that Williamson was switched to centre forward in the reserves and, as an inside forward, was prone to wander rather than maintaining the positional discipline of a traditional number 9 in those days: http://www.citytilidie.com/uncategorized/the-revie-plan/

I believe that Ken Barnes's role was crucial because we couldn't rely on Trautmann kicking the ball long to a centre forward who usually wasn't in position, so he had to play the ball short, and it was to Barnes that the ball almost always went. Ken, as he says himself in the link I supplied above, wasn't a defensive wing half but he was known as an excellent passer, which was crucial when we were adopting that strategy. Likewise, when we recovered possession when our opponents were attacking, our defenders tended to look for Barnes, who would then make a pass upfield. Without his passing ability, there'd have been a risk of us conceding possession in dangerous areas, but Barnes almost never lost the ball, And he had a range of passing that meant he was able to pick out constructive passes that not only ensured that we retained possession but put us in a position to launch attacks. Most often, that involved finding Revie, who'd dropped off into pockets of space where he could create danger.

It was all well and good for Revie to take up those dangerous positions that allowed him to work with the other talented forwards such as Roy Clarke and Bobby Johnstone to threaten opposing defences. However, the system relied on someone getting the ball to Revie and it was Barnes who primarily did that, which is why I presume he's seen as the pivotal figure.

This is the impression I have from talking about it with my old man, who watched that side as a teenager. I wasn't actually alive at the time. :)

 

[dasein]

I've mentioned this before but in the possible absence of Aguero if injury should strike again then I think that Yaya could see out his City career in a false 9 role. Without the shackles of a midfield 'holding' role and without the work of the Silva role too, he could cause havoc amongst opposition defences as they wouldn't know whether to mark him or not with a CB, or without marking him from a midfield player relieved of his own attacking duties. In a system where Yaya is employed in only the last third of the field and devoid of high intensity input, Pellegrini could build a balanced team behind Yaya, leaving Yaya with only the creative side of his game to concentrate on.

Very interesting ideas, he appears to be well suited for that role, although I would think Guardiola opt for kdb as the false 9 role, for different reasons obviously

 

[Damocles]

In the article above it references how Guardiola is not a creator, he's an innovator. It says how the "False 9" position was invented by Hungary in the 1950's, and Pep simply reinvented it a few years back when he started playing Messi in the middle.

Not sure how he reinvented something that never went out of fashion and was consistently played by top teams for 20 years previously to him.

There's some mad articles going around about Guardiola at the minute. Somebody claimed he was the reason Spain and Germany (!) won the World Cup. Pretty sure he's going to do something involving water and wine next.

 

[Gordyola]

GOD BLESS KEN. Met him a few times along with Peter. He was a an absolute gentleman. Another great city player ignored by the 'istree brigade. Fuck 'em all. Our story marches on.

Spot on about Ken I too never saw him play but my old man was a fan Also I'm lucky to call Pete a friend and he told me more about Ken's role in the team and what the other players said about his Dad

 

[George Hannah]

Don was a hands on man

 

[Shaelumstash]

Not sure how he reinvented something that never went out of fashion and was consistently played by top teams for 20 years previously to him.

There's some mad articles going around about Guardiola at the minute. Somebody claimed he was the reason Spain and Germany (!) won the World Cup. Pretty sure he's going to do something involving water and wine next.

Playing without a centre forward never went out of fashion? I'm surprised you say that, because I've seen Fabio Capello, Marcelo Lippi and Fabio Cannavaro and Vincente De Bosque all credit him with bringing it back in to fashion.

 

[Damocles]

Playing without a centre forward never went out of fashion? I'm surprised you say that, because I've seen Fabio Capello, Marcelo Lippi and Fabio Cannavaro and Vincente De Bosque all credit him with bringing it back in to fashion.

Roma were doing it all the way through the mid 2000s with Totti quite famously.

 

[Neville Kneville]

This is Ken talking about how the system came about. He says that we didn't try to imitate the Hungarians but that Williamson was switched to centre forward in the reserves and, as an inside forward, was prone to wander rather than maintaining the positional discipline of a traditional number 9 in those days: http://www.citytilidie.com/uncategorized/the-revie-plan/

I believe that Ken Barnes's role was crucial because we couldn't rely on Trautmann kicking the ball long to a centre forward who usually wasn't in position, so he had to play the ball short, and it was to Barnes that the ball almost always went. Ken, as he says himself in the link I supplied above, wasn't a defensive wing half but he was known as an excellent passer, which was crucial when we were adopting that strategy. Likewise, when we recovered possession when our opponents were attacking, our defenders tended to look for Barnes, who would then make a pass upfield. Without his passing ability, there'd have been a risk of us conceding possession in dangerous areas, but Barnes almost never lost the ball, And he had a range of passing that meant he was able to pick out constructive passes that not only ensured that we retained possession but put us in a position to launch attacks. Most often, that involved finding Revie, who'd dropped off into pockets of space where he could create danger.

It was all well and good for Revie to take up those dangerous positions that allowed him to work with the other talented forwards such as Roy Clarke and Bobby Johnstone to threaten opposing defences. However, the system relied on someone getting the ball to Revie and it was Barnes who primarily did that, which is why I presume he's seen as the pivotal figure.

This is the impression I have from talking about it with my old man, who watched that side as a teenager. I wasn't actually alive at the time. :)

Imagine that interview on the o.s. ?

Ken Barnes Remembers The Revie Plan

"Bollocks"

Quality.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Roma were doing it all the way through the mid 2000s with Totti quite famously.

Yes, but that's the tone of the article, it says Pep didn't invent the system, rather that he made it popular / fasionable again.

While Totti may have played in a system similar for Roma for a period, and Del Piero may have played in a similar system for Juve for a period, it didn't become widespread and popular.

Whereas Guardiola won two Champions League's using that system, Spain won a World Cup playing that system and City even played that way during an injury ravaged period with Milner as the false 9. I personally think Pellegrini was more influenced by Guardiola than Spaletti in adopting that system.

Another example is Lippi's World Cup winning Italian side in 2006. I'm sure other teams played 4231 before that, but after that tournament many teams adopted it and it became fashionable.