EU referendum

[blueonblue]

Your rights as a free man can not be over ridden by statute created by parliament, full stop.

Both the Magna carter and the Bill of rights (1689) stand above parliament, Criminal cases have the right to trial by jury, civil cases have the right to the Queens bench.
You have an absolute right to silence, and that includes writing or signing anything, your point on tax is interesting because it highlights one of the most contentious issues, try looking up "Lawful rebellion" and try finding any case that has been taken before a court by the taxman.


Rights can never be taken away, but you can give them up, dont do it in ignorance.

 

[D-Raheem-ing of big ears]

Your rights as a free man can not be over ridden by statute created by parliament, full stop.

Both the Magna carter and the Bill of rights (1689) stand above parliament, Criminal cases have the right to trial by jury, civil cases have the right to the Queens bench.
You have an absolute right to silence, and that includes writing or signing anything, your point on tax is interesting because it highlights one of the most contentious issues, try looking up "Lawful rebellion" and try finding any case that has been taken before a court by the taxman.


Rights can never be taken away, but you can give them up, dont do it in ignorance.

Would such a "free man" be equivilent to a "freeman of the land" ?

You sound like you have been watching too many of youtube videos made by the charlatans trying to sell you their products. Freeman of the land rubbish bears little resemblance to real law because it has been made up by the aforementioned salespeople trying to sell you american style self-help books or elaborated on by well-meaning, but confused people who have never studied law at approved academic or professional standards.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land

As for the rest, Magna carta no longer has any standing on English law, it was annulled a few months after it was passed. Most of you what hear about magna carta being the cornerstone of modern democracy in the MSM by politicians and their like, is hyperbole and mythology. It is good timing actually, because the concept piqued my interest yesterday so it take me too long to pull out this article again.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/12/guardian-view-on-magna-carta-magic-of-myth

Most of the other stuff you are regurgitating has already been covered by denislawsbackheel so I won't answer that.

But I will make it clear that the stuff you say about parliament not having the right to override rights by statute is absolute bollocks. They have an almost unlimited power to do that, the cornerstone of our constitution is supremacy [also referred to as sovereignty] of parliament, which means that new laws naturally take precedence over old laws, whether they are statute, common law or equitable. There are checks and balances of course, however the most influential of these is the ECHR, but as we don't have a constitutional court, the Supreme court can only ever declare laws incompatible with the convention and put the onus on ministers and parliament to correct this, they don't have the power to overrule like in the US, for instance.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Your rights as a free man can not be over ridden by statute created by parliament, full stop.

Both the Magna carter and the Bill of rights (1689) stand above parliament, Criminal cases have the right to trial by jury, civil cases have the right to the Queens bench.
You have an absolute right to silence, and that includes writing or signing anything, your point on tax is interesting because it highlights one of the most contentious issues, try looking up "Lawful rebellion" and try finding any case that has been taken before a court by the taxman.


Rights can never be taken away, but you can give them up, dont do it in ignorance.

Is that the one written by Michael Caine?

I would not have responded to you originally if I had realised you were one of those freemen of the land nut jobs.

 

[blueonblue]

I suggest you read up any statute, you will see "Is given the force of law by the consent of the governed", so not only does that confirm it is NOT a law, but that there is a higher authority to which it is subject, common law, which still stands as the highest ranked law.

• Magna Carta 1215 and the Declaration of Rights 1688 set out (restate) our unalienable RIGHTS derived from the common law. They are beyond the reach of parliament and they can NEVER revoke (repeal) them.
• Article 61 Magna Carta 1215 is the constitutional Security Clause to protect the people from a corrupt or despotic government providing us lawful excuse to refuse to cooperate with any Crown agency or law.
• Article 61 was most recently correctly invoked by the Committee of the Barons in March 2001 and continues to remain in effect until redress of grievance.
• Halesbury’s Vol.44 clearly describes Magna Carta 1215 as a “constitutional statute”. Constitutional statutes are immune from implied repeal.

 

[D-Raheem-ing of big ears]

I suggest you read up any statute, you will see "Is given the force of law by the consent of the governed", so not only does that confirm it is NOT a law, but that there is a higher authority to which it is subject, common law, which still stands as the highest ranked law.

• Magna Carta 1215 and the Declaration of Rights 1688 set out (restate) our unalienable RIGHTS derived from the common law. They are beyond the reach of parliament and they can NEVER revoke (repeal) them.
• Article 61 Magna Carta 1215 is the constitutional Security Clause to protect the people from a corrupt or despotic government providing us lawful excuse to refuse to cooperate with any Crown agency or law.
• Article 61 was most recently correctly invoked by the Committee of the Barons in March 2001 and continues to remain in effect until redress of grievance.
• Halesbury’s Vol.44 clearly describes Magna Carta 1215 as a “constitutional statute”. Constitutional statutes are immune from implied repeal.

Lol. You sound like a robot on auto response. There is no such thing as a true constitutional statute in English law, because we don't have a codified written constitution, and there is no such thing as higher law. I have already told you the basis of our constitution above. You don't have to take my word for it, I highly doubt you will. I suggest you go and read about the subject using recognised and authoritative scholarship; Walter Bagehot's "The English Constitution" is just one example. If you do actually care about the subject enough, you might want to invest time and money educating yourself on it. Not spending a few hours reading on the internet and declaring yourself an expert.

You are my no means obliged to do that, but if you do recite freeman of the land legalese, you will be laughed at and rightly held as equivalent to a member of the flat earth society.

The basic tenet of freeman-ism is that it's members believe they have a book of cheat codes, which they can use to escape legal responsibility. That is simplistic reductionist tosh.

 

[blueonblue]

Yeah, you keep believing that bud ;0)

 

[D-Raheem-ing of big ears]

Yeah, you keep believing that bud ;0)

Do you also believe in reptilian shape-shifters and dispute the existence of the Earth's moon?

 

[I Hart Man City]

The basic tenet of freeman-ism is that it's members believe they have a book of cheat codes, which they can use to escape legal responsibility. That is simplistic reductionist tosh.

I don't have anything to add and wouldn't be able to do so to the standard of the excellent responses given by you and denislawsbackheel but I wanted to quote these two sentences for their sheer brilliance.

 

[D-Raheem-ing of big ears]

I can't take credit for that unfortunately. The first sentence was paraphrasing an extract from the article I linked from rational wiki, all I did was sex it up a it.

 

[blueonblue]

An sheep stick together ;0)

 

[Tim of the Oak]

All well and good, but then we would be able to trade freely with the rest of the (94%) world market on our terms, and while you can say we sell 40% of output to the EU, we are the EU`s single biggest customer running a trade deposit of about double, if they want to start in on a trade war with unfair tariffs then its they who will lose out.

Nor should you ignore the harm vast numbers of none skilled worker do to this country, or the simple fact we have no control who comes over our borders.

The biggest single reason to vote no is the complete lose of any say as to how this country is run, the total lose of the rule of law being separate from the state, where as under the British constitution governments have to obey the law, we still have rights like trial by jury, the right to remain silent, no taxation without representation, in short we are a free people under British law by right of birth, that will most certainly not be the case under the constitution the EU is trying to bring in.

So the EU told us to bomb Iraq and Libya? No we fucked that up for ourselves, or at least the politicians we voted for did!

If we were to go independent (which may well happen) I would expect the EU and other trading blocs to insist that we do more to tackle the home grown terrorism we are growing and exporting. So much for immigration being a one way argument!

 

[blueonblue]

I dont know where or what to start with on that one, France are bombing both for example, I dont see what that has to do with the EU argument, that was down to Blair trying to get further up the yanks arse.

There may well be some point to "Home grown terrorists", though the incidents in Europe have been blamed on cells from inside France & Belgium reinforced by people getting in as "Refugee`s" rather than any connection to the UK.
But then is not that one more point in favor of knowing who is coming in or going out by having control of our borders ?

 

[PJMCC1UK]

Most definitely out.
All I've seen from the inners is scare-mongering. This idea that we would fall apart because we aren't part of the club is laughable. We trade due to us having stuff to sell and money to buy. If countries don't see fit to trade with us then they will lose out too. We are the 5th largest economy in spite of the EU. Had we joined the Euro (and remember the scaremongering that was done to persuade us to join) we'd be in such a worse position.
I've seen a letter from a former ambassador to Japan who stated that Japan would prefer is to stay in. Yet Japan doesn't have to be a part of an ever closer political union with China and south Korea in order to trade with the rest of the world. Can you imagine that political union.
I've read today that our science would suffer unless we remain as part of a European bloc. Science goes beyond borders. Graphene was first produced by 2 Russians at Manchester. Russia isn't part of the EU. This idea that we couldn't attract the best talents unless we are within the EU is silly. What we currently have is a system that means an unskilled worker can arrive from Europe unchallenged. A talented and highly qualified individual from the rest of the world still has to go through all the paper work to get here.
The idea that anyone opposed to mass immigration is somehow isolationist is quite sad. Mass immigration unchecked puts huge strains on our medical, educational and housing sectors. When we take charge of our borders then we can control the influx and have a good idea of what is needed. IF the rest of Europe can walk in at any time then we have no idea what is needed. We also get to put all immigrants through the same qualifying standards.
I am sick of seeing projects that were ''funded by the EU'' we paid that money to the EU in the first place. We pay in more than we get out. The EU hasn't signed off it's accounts. Can you imagine the uproar if the UK government couldn't vouch for it's spending? Remember these idiots move their parliament every 6 months at great expense without any reason for it.
I'm sick of seeing that many equality laws are there because of the EU, as if somehow we are incapable of being progressive without some unelected bureaucrat telling us to be. We managed to build an NHS and abolish legal slavery without the EU.
Owen Jones (amongst others) has stated that we need to be a part of the EU so we can enact democratic change within Europe. Cameron asked for nothing, got even less and they are pretty much saying that it won't last long anyway, if it even gets past Euro MPs. If people honestly believe that these people are going to give up their gravy train to bring about democratic change then I pity you.
TTIP should show you what the EU thinks of democracy and the people. The fact that we started with a trade agreement and ended up with ever more centralised European government should show you what these people think about democracy. The EU is more than likely as corrupt as FIFA. They are certainly heavily lobbied by people with vested interests.


My hope is that a Brexit will also wake up the rest of Europe and the political elite can be told exactly were to put their big government. They say it is a risk to leave.It is just as much a risk to stay. This isn't about xenophobia or isolationism. It's about seeing the bigger global picture. It's about less centralised governance. It's about democratic choice. Don't throw that away by sticking with the status quo and being frightened into staying.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Copied from MPs Pay thread, belongs here!

I am out because of:

EU and Security and border control. I feel very uneasy about 500 million people having the right to just be able to come here, especially when you look at the external borders of the EU and how porous they are. There are undoubtedly people that hate our country coming across and aspiring to do us harm. ISISL told us a year ago they would create a situation where there would be mass migration, and lo and behold that's exactly what we have. They also told us there would be terrorists in the number, and again that's what we're facing. I get angry when people like Cameron tell me we are dependent upon the EU for security, we're not. We are much more dependent and attuned to NATO and the five eyes. Whilst we do share some information with our European partners, make no mistake we don't tell everyone everything and the control and first point of governance would be NATO. The UN is also in place to ensure to the best of their ability world peace and stability. How many clubs, associations do we really need to create and be members of?

EU Immigration control. I don't like the fact you have people coming into the UK having not contributed anything and from day one taking money out in the form of child allowance when the children live back home in their own country. I question why we are paying anything, the home countries surely should pay? I just don't get why each country doesn't manage its own people, regardless of where they live.

EU and the economy. Why are the government not supporting the steel industry through support and investment, because the EU dictates that you cannot. Why does the Government not impose a tax on cheap Chinese steel? Because the EU tells us we cannot? Why does the government allow Germany and France to sell gas and electricity to out country at a much higher rate that they do their own? Because the EU allows for that to happen. It is interesting to note that despite the uncertainty and risk that we could leave the EU, Aston Martin has taken to creating 750 jobs in Wales. If the Inner scaremongerers were to be believed, Aston Martin wouldn't make any such commitment to the UK at this stage, especially as they had options in Europe.

EU and law making. Britain is the most compliant of any EU country when it comes to the implementation of EU law. I worked with the DfT around ten years ago implementing European legislation - other countries paid no more than lip service to the changes whereas we spent millions doing things they couldn't be worried with. Central control and governance cannot work at this level.

EU and governance. We have an appointed unelected group of 28 commissioners and 23,000 employees working for them... I guess that's their equivalent of the House of Lords. We have 751 MEPs. Even with basic understanding of how this works it is plain to see it is too big. This one size fits all approach is bureaucratic, inefficient and just does not work as far as I'm concerned. Remove the European Parliament and what happens? Does Europe fall apart? No it doesn't, each country will just continue governing themselves without interventions.

The EU and and what it has become in relation to what it set out to achieve is an out of control white elephant achieving very little. Dave earlier commented on productivity, I think we as a nation need to look here first and make a statement by saying, "fine, if it's good for you, you carry on, we're going to manage our own affairs". I'm all for the common market but not to the level of political, cultural, law making and the control levels that have been placed upon us by stealth.

I'm out and not because I am racist and xenophobic or because I hark back to the days of the commonwealth, but because I feel as a country we have the right to be who we want to be and not be who we're told we must be. Straight bananas, bent cucumbers bah humbug! Go to any supermarket is Spain and tell me they're implementing the same rules and governance as us.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Most definitely out.
All I've seen from the inners is scare-mongering. This idea that we would fall apart because we aren't part of the club is laughable. We trade due to us having stuff to sell and money to buy. If countries don't see fit to trade with us then they will lose out too. We are the 5th largest economy in spite of the EU. Had we joined the Euro (and remember the scaremongering that was done to persuade us to join) we'd be in such a worse position.
I've seen a letter from a former ambassador to Japan who stated that Japan would prefer is to stay in. Yet Japan doesn't have to be a part of an ever closer political union with China and south Korea in order to trade with the rest of the world. Can you imagine that political union.
I've read today that our science would suffer unless we remain as part of a European bloc. Science goes beyond borders. Graphene was first produced by 2 Russians at Manchester. Russia isn't part of the EU. This idea that we couldn't attract the best talents unless we are within the EU is silly. What we currently have is a system that means an unskilled worker can arrive from Europe unchallenged. A talented and highly qualified individual from the rest of the world still has to go through all the paper work to get here.
The idea that anyone opposed to mass immigration is somehow isolationist is quite sad. Mass immigration unchecked puts huge strains on our medical, educational and housing sectors. When we take charge of our borders then we can control the influx and have a good idea of what is needed. IF the rest of Europe can walk in at any time then we have no idea what is needed. We also get to put all immigrants through the same qualifying standards.
I am sick of seeing projects that were ''funded by the EU'' we paid that money to the EU in the first place. We pay in more than we get out. The EU hasn't signed off it's accounts. Can you imagine the uproar if the UK government couldn't vouch for it's spending? Remember these idiots move their parliament every 6 months at great expense without any reason for it.
I'm sick of seeing that many equality laws are there because of the EU, as if somehow we are incapable of being progressive without some unelected bureaucrat telling us to be. We managed to build an NHS and abolish legal slavery without the EU.
Owen Jones (amongst others) has stated that we need to be a part of the EU so we can enact democratic change within Europe. Cameron asked for nothing, got even less and they are pretty much saying that it won't last long anyway, if it even gets past Euro MPs. If people honestly believe that these people are going to give up their gravy train to bring about democratic change then I pity you.
TTIP should show you what the EU thinks of democracy and the people. The fact that we started with a trade agreement and ended up with ever more centralised European government should show you what these people think about democracy. The EU is more than likely as corrupt as FIFA. They are certainly heavily lobbied by people with vested interests.


My hope is that a Brexit will also wake up the rest of Europe and the political elite can be told exactly were to put their big government. They say it is a risk to leave.It is just as much a risk to stay. This isn't about xenophobia or isolationism. It's about seeing the bigger global picture. It's about less centralised governance. It's about democratic choice. Don't throw that away by sticking with the status quo and being frightened into staying.

Valid points succinctly put. Making Australian and South African engineers jump through hoops to gain entry, whilst waving through Romanian accordian players
does not, to me, make a sensible immigration policy.

 

[blueonblue]

You Accordionist !


;0)

 

[blueonblue]

Just thought I would throw that in before the usual suspects come on to tell us how racist ( Or Accordionist in ACs case) we all are for stating the bleeding obvious.

 

[Seosa]

Out.

 

[west didsblue]

Most definitely out.
All I've seen from the inners is scare-mongering. This idea that we would fall apart because we aren't part of the club is laughable. We trade due to us having stuff to sell and money to buy. If countries don't see fit to trade with us then they will lose out too. We are the 5th largest economy in spite of the EU. Had we joined the Euro (and remember the scaremongering that was done to persuade us to join) we'd be in such a worse position.
I've seen a letter from a former ambassador to Japan who stated that Japan would prefer is to stay in. Yet Japan doesn't have to be a part of an ever closer political union with China and south Korea in order to trade with the rest of the world. Can you imagine that political union.
I've read today that our science would suffer unless we remain as part of a European bloc. Science goes beyond borders. Graphene was first produced by 2 Russians at Manchester. Russia isn't part of the EU. This idea that we couldn't attract the best talents unless we are within the EU is silly. What we currently have is a system that means an unskilled worker can arrive from Europe unchallenged. A talented and highly qualified individual from the rest of the world still has to go through all the paper work to get here.
The idea that anyone opposed to mass immigration is somehow isolationist is quite sad. Mass immigration unchecked puts huge strains on our medical, educational and housing sectors. When we take charge of our borders then we can control the influx and have a good idea of what is needed. IF the rest of Europe can walk in at any time then we have no idea what is needed. We also get to put all immigrants through the same qualifying standards.
I am sick of seeing projects that were ''funded by the EU'' we paid that money to the EU in the first place. We pay in more than we get out. The EU hasn't signed off it's accounts. Can you imagine the uproar if the UK government couldn't vouch for it's spending? Remember these idiots move their parliament every 6 months at great expense without any reason for it.
I'm sick of seeing that many equality laws are there because of the EU, as if somehow we are incapable of being progressive without some unelected bureaucrat telling us to be. We managed to build an NHS and abolish legal slavery without the EU.
Owen Jones (amongst others) has stated that we need to be a part of the EU so we can enact democratic change within Europe. Cameron asked for nothing, got even less and they are pretty much saying that it won't last long anyway, if it even gets past Euro MPs. If people honestly believe that these people are going to give up their gravy train to bring about democratic change then I pity you.
TTIP should show you what the EU thinks of democracy and the people. The fact that we started with a trade agreement and ended up with ever more centralised European government should show you what these people think about democracy. The EU is more than likely as corrupt as FIFA. They are certainly heavily lobbied by people with vested interests.


My hope is that a Brexit will also wake up the rest of Europe and the political elite can be told exactly were to put their big government. They say it is a risk to leave.It is just as much a risk to stay. This isn't about xenophobia or isolationism. It's about seeing the bigger global picture. It's about less centralised governance. It's about democratic choice. Don't throw that away by sticking with the status quo and being frightened into staying.

Copied from MPs Pay thread, belongs here!

I am out because of:

EU and Security and border control. I feel very uneasy about 500 million people having the right to just be able to come here, especially when you look at the external borders of the EU and how porous they are. There are undoubtedly people that hate our country coming across and aspiring to do us harm. ISISL told us a year ago they would create a situation where there would be mass migration, and lo and behold that's exactly what we have. They also told us there would be terrorists in the number, and again that's what we're facing. I get angry when people like Cameron tell me we are dependent upon the EU for security, we're not. We are much more dependent and attuned to NATO and the five eyes. Whilst we do share some information with our European partners, make no mistake we don't tell everyone everything and the control and first point of governance would be NATO. The UN is also in place to ensure to the best of their ability world peace and stability. How many clubs, associations do we really need to create and be members of?

EU Immigration control. I don't like the fact you have people coming into the UK having not contributed anything and from day one taking money out in the form of child allowance when the children live back home in their own country. I question why we are paying anything, the home countries surely should pay? I just don't get why each country doesn't manage its own people, regardless of where they live.

EU and the economy. Why are the government not supporting the steel industry through support and investment, because the EU dictates that you cannot. Why does the Government not impose a tax on cheap Chinese steel? Because the EU tells us we cannot? Why does the government allow Germany and France to sell gas and electricity to out country at a much higher rate that they do their own? Because the EU allows for that to happen. It is interesting to note that despite the uncertainty and risk that we could leave the EU, Aston Martin has taken to creating 750 jobs in Wales. If the Inner scaremongerers were to be believed, Aston Martin wouldn't make any such commitment to the UK at this stage, especially as they had options in Europe.

EU and law making. Britain is the most compliant of any EU country when it comes to the implementation of EU law. I worked with the DfT around ten years ago implementing European legislation - other countries paid no more than lip service to the changes whereas we spent millions doing things they couldn't be worried with. Central control and governance cannot work at this level.

EU and governance. We have an appointed unelected group of 28 commissioners and 23,000 employees working for them... I guess that's their equivalent of the House of Lords. We have 751 MEPs. Even with basic understanding of how this works it is plain to see it is too big. This one size fits all approach is bureaucratic, inefficient and just does not work as far as I'm concerned. Remove the European Parliament and what happens? Does Europe fall apart? No it doesn't, each country will just continue governing themselves without interventions.

The EU and and what it has become in relation to what it set out to achieve is an out of control white elephant achieving very little. Dave earlier commented on productivity, I think we as a nation need to look here first and make a statement by saying, "fine, if it's good for you, you carry on, we're going to manage our own affairs". I'm all for the common market but not to the level of political, cultural, law making and the control levels that have been placed upon us by stealth.

I'm out and not because I am racist and xenophobic or because I hark back to the days of the commonwealth, but because I feel as a country we have the right to be who we want to be and not be who we're told we must be. Straight bananas, bent cucumbers bah humbug! Go to any supermarket is Spain and tell me they're implementing the same rules and governance as us.

Good posts. I'd like to see an argument from an inner that isn't based on scaremongering. Still can't decide but the outers seem to have the more convincing arguments at the moment.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Quick question - Cards on the table I will be voting in. If I am on the wrong side of the vote then I accept we go with the flow and I have to live with it and either stay in a UK thats outside the EU or - if I am still allowed to - move abroad to somewhere in the EU.

If I am on the winning side of the vote will all the outers agree to the same rules? i.e. thats it you lost shut up and live with it or will there be just endless campaigning to come out and complaining that we are in the EU? If that the plan then frankly can't see the point of a referendum.