west didsblue
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I guess it's because Shah apologised. Although as far as I'm concerned, they should have got rid of her as well.
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Ken Livingston
- Thread starter kas_tippler
- Start date
Gelsons Dad
Well-Known Member
And that's pretty much lesson one for anyone who wants to work in public service. Keep your personal views to yourself.I think it does have a problem but I also think the right wing press is using it as a stick to beat Corbyn with. I would imagine there are far more Tories who have ideological sympathies with Hitler. They're just not stupid enough to show it publicly.
Politicians should keep their personal views out of, erm, politics? Fuck me. Then let's just get rid of democracy altogether. No-one seems to like it anyway.And that's pretty much lesson one for anyone who wants to work in public service. Keep your personal views to yourself.
bluemoonmatt
Well-Known Member
Oh that's ok thenI guess it's because Shah apologised. Although as far as I'm concerned, they should have got rid of her as well.
Did she say sorry for hating Jews or sorry for saying she hated Jews
west didsblue
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She apologised for upsetting people and said she didn't mean it. I would say she was lying to save her job.Oh that's ok then
Did she say sorry for hating Jews or sorry for saying she hated Jews
whp.blue
Well-Known Member
Oh that's ok then
Did she say sorry for hating Jews or sorry for saying she hated Jews
only the latter is an offence
anyone can think what they want voicing those thoughts is a different matter
Gelsons Dad
Well-Known Member
Politicians should keep their personal views out of, erm, politics? Fuck me. Then let's just get rid of democracy altogether. No-one seems to like it anyway.
In a democracy one elects public servants based on how closely they and their party reflect your views. Once elected their duty to the public is to represent. Not to suddenly start expressing other contrary views. When they do so they no longer are serving the public who elected them but rather themselves. No one every got elected on a promise to serve themselves. Those who expose themselves as doing so after being elected should be removed from office.
Democracy is at the service of the electorate and by their choice. Hence the saying you get the government you deserve.
You are proposing a government and parliament of people who never express their personal views. No need for MPs then, Just a one party state. Sorted.In a democracy one elects public servants based on how closely they and their party reflect your views. Once elected their duty to the public is to represent. Not to suddenly start expressing other contrary views. When they do so they no longer are serving the public who elected them but rather themselves. No one every got elected on a promise to serve themselves. Those who expose themselves as doing so after being elected should be removed from office.
Democracy is at the service of the electorate and by their choice. Hence the saying you get the government you deserve.
kevin horlocks wand
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Democracy government what's that. It's None stop politics. We have labour internally with this issue to deal with. The Tories worried about their tax returns and whether they need to publish it or hide it. Btw what happened to all the millions of files and people found in Panama. Not just daves dad all the others who are really at it. Then the Euro referendum where all the divided politicians tour the country arguing their cause. Can I ask who the feck is running the country and passing laws and dealing with issues to make the country better and stronger. It's all descended into chaos.
Gelsons Dad
Well-Known Member
You are proposing a government and parliament of people who never express their personal views. No need for MPs then, Just a one party state. Sorted.
I'm proposing a government who express their views when standing for election and become public servants based on those views.
Do you think anyone expressing anti-semantic views would be allowed to stand for any party? Do you think they would be elected if they did? So the democratic process prevents these people being elected in the first place as they do not represent the population who they wish to vote for them. When these people subsequently expose themselves as having lied to the electorate they should then be removed from office.
I'm trying not to raise to your bait as I'm all too familiar with your tactics. I also have an inkling that you probably don't think there is anything wrong with the opinions we are discussing. But that's just my opinion based on your contribution to this and other similar threads and I would be happy to be proved otherwise.
bluemoonmatt
Well-Known Member
oh for pitys sake
That's the point. It's creating a dangerous right wing precedent whereby narrowing opinion to the point of singularity. Then the concept of free thought and speech will finally have died. We're not far off that now, I'm afraid.I think prospective politicians should declare their stance on every major issue prior to being elected.
No point in apologising for airing an opinion if that's how you really feel.
At least it's honesty.
west didsblue
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Livingstone's actions and the people he associates with make it very clear where his prejudices lie. If he explicitly stated those views rather than making mealy mouthed comments he would have been booted out years ago.I think prospective politicians should declare their stance on every major issue prior to being elected.
No point in apologising for airing an opinion if that's how you really feel.
At least it's honesty.
bluemoonmatt
Well-Known Member
Inclined to agree, it probably wouldn't have affected Nas Shah as theres probably a great deal of support for her questionable views within her constituency but I cant accept that Livingstone would have got anywhere near the Londons Mayoral office. I'm sure the left wing Zionist media would have seen to thatI think prospective politicians should declare their stance on every major issue prior to being elected.
No point in apologising for airing an opinion if that's how you really feel.
At least it's honesty.
BlueHammer85
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Overblown bollox
KenTheLandlord
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weird how Shah is still in her job unless I missed something yet they have (rightfully) suspended Livingstone. Honestly the Labour party is imploding. Which whatever way you look at it is not good news for democracy in the UK.
Naz Shah was suspended yesterday.
manctheknife
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Free thought and speech died years ago. Ask Ron Atkinson.That's the point. It's creating a dangerous right wing precedent whereby narrowing opinion to the point of singularity. Then the concept of free thought and speech will finally have died. We're not far off that now, I'm afraid.
union city blue
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Statement on “Labour’s problem with antisemitism”
from the Jewish Socialists’ Group
Antisemitism exists and must be exposed and fought against in the same way as other forms of racism by all who are concerned with combating racism and fascism.
Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are not the same. Zionism is a political ideology which has always been contested within Jewish life since it emerged in 1897, and it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express opinions about it, whether positive or negative. Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jews.
Criticism of Israeli government policy and Israeli state actions against the Palestinians is not antisemitism. Those who conflate criticism of Israeli policy with antisemitism, whether they are supporters or opponents of Israeli policy, are actually helping the antisemites. We reject any attempt, from whichever quarter, to place legitimate criticism of Israeli policy out of bounds.
Accusations of antisemitism are currently being weaponised to attack the Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour party with claims that Labour has a “problem” of antisemitism. This is despite Corbyn’s longstanding record of actively opposing fascism and all forms of racism, and being a firm a supporter of the rights of refugees and of human rights globally.
A very small number of such cases seem to be real instances of antisemitism. Others represent genuine criticism of Israeli policy and support for Palestinian rights, but expressed in clumsy and ambiguous language, which may unknowingly cross a line into antisemitism. Further cases are simply forthright expressions of support for Palestinian rights, which condemn Israeli government policy and aspects of Zionist ideology, and have nothing whatsoever to do with antisemitism.
The accusations do not refer to antisemitic actions but usually to comments, often made on social media, long before Jeremy Corbyn won the Labour leadership. Those making the charges now, did not see fit to bring them up at the time, under previous Labour leaders, but are using them now, just before mayoral and local elections, when they believe they can inflict most damage on the Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
The attack is coming from four main sources, who share agendas: to undermine Jeremy Corbyn as leader of Labour; to defend Israeli government policy from attack, however unjust, racist and harmful towards the Palestinian people; and to discredit those who make legitimate criticisms of Israeli policy or Zionism as a political ideology. As anti-racist and anti-fascist Jews who are also campaigning for peace with justice between Israelis and Palestinians, we entirely reject these cynical agendas that are being expressed by:
• The Conservative Party
• Conservative-supporting media in Britain and pro-Zionist Israeli media sources
• Right-wing and pro-Zionist elements claiming to speak on behalf of the Jewish community
• Opponents of Jeremy Corbyn within the Labour party.
The Jewish Socialists’ Group recognises that ordinary Jewish people are rightly concerned and fearful about instances of antisemitism. We share their concerns and a have a proud and consistent record of challenging and campaigning against antisemitism. But we will not support those making false accusations for cynical political motives, including the Conservative Party, who are running a racist campaign against Sadiq Khan, and whose leader David Cameron has referred to desperate refugees, as “a swarm” and “a bunch of migrants”. The Conservative Party demonstrated their contempt for Lord Dubs, a Jewish refugee from Nazism, when they voted down en masse an amendment a few days ago to allow 3,000 child refugees into Britain while Labour, led by Jeremy Corbyn, gave total support to Lord Dubs and his amendment.
The Jewish Socialists’ Group sees the current fearmongering about antisemitism in the Labour Party for what it is – a conscious and concerted effort by right-wing political forces to undermine the growing support among Jews and non-Jews alike for the Labour Party leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, and a measure of the desperation of his opponents.
We stand against antisemitism, against racism and fascism and in support of refugees. We stand for free speech and open debate on Israel, Palestine and Zionism.
Posted: 28 April 2016
from the Jewish Socialists’ Group
Antisemitism exists and must be exposed and fought against in the same way as other forms of racism by all who are concerned with combating racism and fascism.
Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are not the same. Zionism is a political ideology which has always been contested within Jewish life since it emerged in 1897, and it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express opinions about it, whether positive or negative. Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jews.
Criticism of Israeli government policy and Israeli state actions against the Palestinians is not antisemitism. Those who conflate criticism of Israeli policy with antisemitism, whether they are supporters or opponents of Israeli policy, are actually helping the antisemites. We reject any attempt, from whichever quarter, to place legitimate criticism of Israeli policy out of bounds.
Accusations of antisemitism are currently being weaponised to attack the Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour party with claims that Labour has a “problem” of antisemitism. This is despite Corbyn’s longstanding record of actively opposing fascism and all forms of racism, and being a firm a supporter of the rights of refugees and of human rights globally.
A very small number of such cases seem to be real instances of antisemitism. Others represent genuine criticism of Israeli policy and support for Palestinian rights, but expressed in clumsy and ambiguous language, which may unknowingly cross a line into antisemitism. Further cases are simply forthright expressions of support for Palestinian rights, which condemn Israeli government policy and aspects of Zionist ideology, and have nothing whatsoever to do with antisemitism.
The accusations do not refer to antisemitic actions but usually to comments, often made on social media, long before Jeremy Corbyn won the Labour leadership. Those making the charges now, did not see fit to bring them up at the time, under previous Labour leaders, but are using them now, just before mayoral and local elections, when they believe they can inflict most damage on the Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn.
The attack is coming from four main sources, who share agendas: to undermine Jeremy Corbyn as leader of Labour; to defend Israeli government policy from attack, however unjust, racist and harmful towards the Palestinian people; and to discredit those who make legitimate criticisms of Israeli policy or Zionism as a political ideology. As anti-racist and anti-fascist Jews who are also campaigning for peace with justice between Israelis and Palestinians, we entirely reject these cynical agendas that are being expressed by:
• The Conservative Party
• Conservative-supporting media in Britain and pro-Zionist Israeli media sources
• Right-wing and pro-Zionist elements claiming to speak on behalf of the Jewish community
• Opponents of Jeremy Corbyn within the Labour party.
The Jewish Socialists’ Group recognises that ordinary Jewish people are rightly concerned and fearful about instances of antisemitism. We share their concerns and a have a proud and consistent record of challenging and campaigning against antisemitism. But we will not support those making false accusations for cynical political motives, including the Conservative Party, who are running a racist campaign against Sadiq Khan, and whose leader David Cameron has referred to desperate refugees, as “a swarm” and “a bunch of migrants”. The Conservative Party demonstrated their contempt for Lord Dubs, a Jewish refugee from Nazism, when they voted down en masse an amendment a few days ago to allow 3,000 child refugees into Britain while Labour, led by Jeremy Corbyn, gave total support to Lord Dubs and his amendment.
The Jewish Socialists’ Group sees the current fearmongering about antisemitism in the Labour Party for what it is – a conscious and concerted effort by right-wing political forces to undermine the growing support among Jews and non-Jews alike for the Labour Party leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, and a measure of the desperation of his opponents.
We stand against antisemitism, against racism and fascism and in support of refugees. We stand for free speech and open debate on Israel, Palestine and Zionism.
Posted: 28 April 2016