EU referendum

[Helmet Cole]

Arsehole.

Indeed. This sadly appears to be the case.

 

[TonyM]

(Monkfish - you should apologize - you went too far)

 

[snorky]

(Monkfish - you should apologize - you went too far)

this

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

I see the latest guardian telephone poll has exit at 45 percent and remain 42 percent .......

 

[adrian99]

Owner of a printing company on R5 earlier arguing because of cheap labour in China, he needs to keep bringing in immigrants on low wages in order to compete.

Now I'm not saying he's typical but how the fcuk would that pan out in the long term?

I have being saying for years that globalization is simply a process where big business moves its manufacturing jobs to the lowest cost countries because they have the lowest cost workers,this does not benefit home workers. Ultimately home manufacturers are driven out of business as they lose the race to the lowest cost of production and home workers lose their jobs. This is also a huge issue in the US right now where vast numbers of US jobs have been lost, Apple manufactures in China and sells back into the US, this benefits Apple shareholders but not US workers. The same is true closer to home where the average annual wage in Poland is £9,000 and is £27,000 here, how can UK workers compete when the biggest cost is labour? Companies looking to cut costs and invest in low cost production sites move investment and production to Poland, I know because I used to work for a UK business that did exactly this with jobs lost in the UK. We need more manufacturing jobs here in the UK but this guy with a printers will not survive long term, I bought print 20 years ago when the vast majority of printing was done within the UK by well paid printers who spent their earnings in the UK, not by low cost Chinese printers who spend nothing in our economy.

 

[mcfc1632]

Don't disagree - someone wrote a post basically saying people died in the war to stop the EU and I was pointing out what rot that was rather than pretending Churchill had any sense of a future EU- would be interesting to see what he made of today's world.

Didn't I call outers Blacklegs and not Blackshirts? That was a comment about poor people turning against poor people rather than on the real causes of the issues and a comment on blackleg labour of the past. Though there are posters on here who could easily have been blackshirts back in the day

I was referring to this part of a post by you:

"................Churchill their leader was one of the most pro europe leaders this country will ever have. He would be turning on his grave at the Mosely like rhetoric of the outers.............."

 

[sir baconface]

disagree, op was out of order, merely returning fire

You don't know what fire is, you snide shithouse. Go tell him to his face

 

[Gelsons Dad]

I have being saying for years that globalization is simply a process where big business moves its manufacturing jobs to the lowest cost countries because they have the lowest cost workers,this does not benefit home workers. Ultimately home manufacturers are driven out of business as they lose the race to the lowest cost of production and home workers lose their jobs. This is also a huge issue in the US right now where vast numbers of US jobs have been lost, Apple manufactures in China and sells back into the US, this benefits Apple shareholders but not US workers. The same is true closer to home where the average annual wage in Poland is £9,000 and is £27,000 here, how can UK workers compete when the biggest cost is labour? Companies looking to cut costs and invest in low cost production sites move investment and production to Poland, I know because I used to work for a UK business that did exactly this with jobs lost in the UK. We need more manufacturing jobs here in the UK but this guy with a printers will not survive long term, I bought print 20 years ago when the vast majority of printing was done within the UK by well paid printers who spent their earnings in the UK, not by low cost Chinese printers who spend nothing in our economy.

UBS one of the biggest banks in the world has been moving a lot of their corporate HQ back office work to Poland over the last few years. For exactly this reason. It's great for UBS and for Poland it means jobs but they are the lowest(relatively speaking) paid jobs at UBS and all the managers commute from Zurich. It only benefits the shareholders in the end.

The UK has a double problem because for individuals in the lowest pay bracket the UK is a massive draw due to the living wage and for business they can relocate to the cheapest place in the EU for their production. So fewer low paid jobs in the UK and more people looking to take them from all over the EU leaves the UK workforce in a shit position. The living wage only makes sense if it benefits those already in the UK and that can never happen in the EU. You either need a fixed EU wide minimum wage or selective immigration policy across the EU. Neither benefit business and therefore will never happen inside the EU cartel.

 

[sir baconface]

I have being saying for years that globalization is simply a process where big business moves its manufacturing jobs to the lowest cost countries because they have the lowest cost workers,this does not benefit home workers. Ultimately home manufacturers are driven out of business as they lose the race to the lowest cost of production and home workers lose their jobs. This is also a huge issue in the US right now where vast numbers of US jobs have been lost, Apple manufactures in China and sells back into the US, this benefits Apple shareholders but not US workers. The same is true closer to home where the average annual wage in Poland is £9,000 and is £27,000 here, how can UK workers compete when the biggest cost is labour? Companies looking to cut costs and invest in low cost production sites move investment and production to Poland, I know because I used to work for a UK business that did exactly this with jobs lost in the UK. We need more manufacturing jobs here in the UK but this guy with a printers will not survive long term, I bought print 20 years ago when the vast majority of printing was done within the UK by well paid printers who spent their earnings in the UK, not by low cost Chinese printers who spend nothing in our economy.

It's impossible to win on labour costs against emerging countries. The chase to the bottom can only end in tears. To tackle such competition, countries like ours have to find different niches, whether that be moving up-market on quality or being more creative and innovative. In the mass market, virtually anything can be copied these days - quickly and and cheaply.

 

[west didsblue]

Having wavered from in to out and back to "I don't know", I can see clear arguments on both sides. I've come to the conclusion that there's no right or wrong answer. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. Some people will be better off in and some will be better off out so I've decided to vote selfishly for what will be better for me in the short to medium term as to make a decision on what's best for the country in the long term is not possible without knowing the future. For that reason I'm in again.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Always the case where principles are concerned.

 

[manctheknife]

Its OUT for me. Some well reasoned debate on this board, both sides. Far better than the respective campaigns are offering, Bluemoon is debating this at a higher level....between the insults and offering out that is.
Out because....nothing against Europe, or immigration which I consider virtually unstoppable in a globalized market anyway, what I object to is the EU set up and governance. It's a con, and always has been. Have they ever had audited accounts?
On a more selfish principle I'm out just to wind up my fkin smug German Brother in law, who reckons we don't have the bollocks to leave.

If we leave, nothing will change.
If we stay, Eurasia beckons. Federalist Technocrat government.

That's my 5 cents, with respect to the Inners.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

If we leave all UK expat pensioners in Europe will have their pensions frozen until individual deals can be made with each and every European country.

If we leave E111 cards will be worthless until such time as individual agreements can be made with each and every european countries.

That's my 2 cents with respect to the outers.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

I have being saying for years that globalization is simply a process where big business moves its manufacturing jobs to the lowest cost countries because they have the lowest cost workers,this does not benefit home workers. Ultimately home manufacturers are driven out of business as they lose the race to the lowest cost of production and home workers lose their jobs. This is also a huge issue in the US right now where vast numbers of US jobs have been lost, Apple manufactures in China and sells back into the US, this benefits Apple shareholders but not US workers. The same is true closer to home where the average annual wage in Poland is £9,000 and is £27,000 here, how can UK workers compete when the biggest cost is labour? Companies looking to cut costs and invest in low cost production sites move investment and production to Poland, I know because I used to work for a UK business that did exactly this with jobs lost in the UK. We need more manufacturing jobs here in the UK but this guy with a printers will not survive long term, I bought print 20 years ago when the vast majority of printing was done within the UK by well paid printers who spent their earnings in the UK, not by low cost Chinese printers who spend nothing in our economy.

I didn't realise they were shifting that much of their operations to Poland...I left ubs well over a decade ago funny people to work for the swiss - a little too materialistic for my liking.

My father in law was over a few weeks back and he said that under swiss law the referendum from 2014 where the vote was won to curb eu immigration is legally binding under the swiss constitution and the government have to introduce it by February next year but the eu are not accepting the referendum result and the swiss are waiting for the brexit result...How does this one pan out then?

 

[BlueHammer85]

Its OUT for me. Some well reasoned debate on this board, both sides. Far better than the respective campaigns are offering, Bluemoon is debating this at a higher level....between the insults and offering out that is.
Out because....nothing against Europe, or immigration which I consider virtually unstoppable in a globalized market anyway, what I object to is the EU set up and governance. It's a con, and always has been. Have they ever had audited accounts?
On a more selfish principle I'm out just to wind up my fkin smug German Brother in law, who reckons we don't have the bollocks to leave.

If we leave, nothing will change.
If we stay, Eurasia beckons. Federalist Technocrat government.

That's my 5 cents, with respect to the Inners.

Your German Brother in law will remain smug.

We're not going anywhere

 

[whp.blue]

I see the latest guardian telephone poll has exit at 45 percent and remain 42 percent .......

Every single person I have asked in my shop has stated that they had already voted or intended to vote out. I know it may not be very scientific but I think this is going to be a bit like the last election where the pollsters get it very wrong. I think a lot of working class people have very strong views on this and the MP"s may be in for a shock.

 

[malg]

Heard two women in work today saying they were voting to stay in as holidays to European destinations would be priced higher if we were outside the EU. One said that she had a holiday booked in Spain for £270, but if we voted out, then it would probably cost around £800. Basically, a holiday in Europe would cost near enough the same as going to America because of tax. They said they'd seen it on the telly from a travel expert!

Now, I've not followed this issue closely, as I just can't be arsed, but surely that is bollox? They were both quite adamant it was true though, and they're both voting to stay in because of it, it is the biggest issue for them.

I'm still voting out because of Obama......

 

[denislawsbackheel]

I'll say it again.
I am a committed europhile, always have been, but the referendum will be 75% for Brexit.

 

[stonerblue]

You don't know what fire is, you snide shithouse. Go tell him to his face

I invented a new game in my sleep last night that could keep us all amused next season when we're playing lowly opposition and Pep's unbeatables are nailed on too thrash 'em 18 nowt.
The day before the game piss off a forum member then post the seat number of some random fan you don't like the look of before inviting the pissed off poster for a 'chat'. Would probably work better at half time..

 

[AlgarveBlu]

If we leave all UK expat pensioners in Europe will have their pensions frozen until individual deals can be made with each and every European country.

If we leave E111 cards will be worthless until such time as individual agreements can be made with each and every european countries.

That's my 2 cents with respect to the outers.

Can't speak for other eu nations but since 2009 Portugal introduced the NHR scheme (non habitual resident) and as soon as you become a Portuguese tax resident you are exempt from paying income tax on pension income and other incomes for 10 years - it's been very successful and was brought into combat likewise incentivisation schemes from Spain - Money always finds a way! the last thing I can see happening is the Portuguese or Spanish cutting of the vast incomes that are generated by the expat community in taxes and consumer spending - they're just not in a position to do that.


All the ukranians here get the same health benefits as everyone else as soon as their registered as tax residents and theyre not even in the eu (yet).