EU referendum

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

Not if its in reverse ;-)

Good answer!...didnt think of that! he!;) will have to come out with a better example next time! he!....

 

[BigJoe#1]

I sense a trick question in there mate? ;)


You can bet your house, car and your job that EU are not going to agree anything without "freedom of movement".....

From a Independent report earlier last month.

"Freedom of movement of people is one of the four principles on which the EU single market is founded. The others are free movement of goods, capital and services"

" If we want to have continuing access to the single market, we will, like Norway, have to allow free movement for EU nationals even if we are no longer in the EU. We can only “gain control of our borders” if we leave the single market and its barrier free access to 500,000,000 consumers"

No trick question, it's a fact. The pro-remain MPs are considering using their parliamentary majority to overturn the result if Leave win. The article is by James Landale on the BBC website. It is not a random blog. I'm interested in MF's view on that... did you comment earlier, if not yours would be appreciated too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36457120

All the points you make are valid as is the fact that our economy is bigger than Norway, Switzerland and Canada combined, so we will have some cards to play at the negotiating table, maybe not all aces but some decent ones.

Again I think that without our money and support the EU will be too badly wounded to take the position of magnificence the inners keep referring to.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

No trick question, it's a fact. The pro-remain MPs are considering using their parliamentary majority to overturn the result if Leave win. The article is by James Landale on the BBC website. It is not a random blog. I'm interested in MF's view on that... did you comment earlier, if not yours would be appreciated too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36457120

All the points you make are valid as is the fact that our economy is bigger than Norway, Switzerland and Canada combined, so we will have some cards to play at the negotiating table, maybe not all aces but some decent ones.

Again I think that without our money and support the EU will be too badly wounded to take the position of magnificence the inners keep referring to.

Dont worry mate.....I know it wasnt a trick question...just worried I was coming across too serious but really I'm enjoying the disucssion.....what are your feelings about this tho? (below)...you still really think we can have our cake and eat it....and agree a special trading agreement that no other country in the history of the EU has ever got? Access to single market without freedom of movement, even tho its one of the principles the EU single market was founded on?....they go hand in hand mate, whether we like it or not...


From a Independent report earlier last month.

"Freedom of movement of people is one of the four principles on which the EU single market is founded. The others are free movement of goods, capital and services"

" If we want to have continuing access to the single market, we will, like Norway, have to allow free movement for EU nationals even if we are no longer in the EU. We can only “gain control of our borders” if we leave the single market and its barrier free access to 500,000,000 consumers"

 

[hgblue]

You can bet your house, car and your job that EU are not going to agree anything without "freedom of movement".....

From a Independent report earlier last month.

"Freedom of movement of people is one of the four principles on which the EU single market is founded. The others are free movement of goods, capital and services"

" If we want to have continuing access to the single market, we will, like Norway, have to allow free movement for EU nationals even if we are no longer in the EU. We can only “gain control of our borders” if we leave the single market and its barrier free access to 500,000,000 consumers"

So America, China, Russia and the rest of the planet have no access to the single market?

 

[FanchesterCity]

So America, China, Russia and the rest of the planet have no access to the single market?

No they don't.

By 'access' he means internal access in order to benefit from the tax reductions and existing trade agreements with many other nations, as well as protection measures.
America, China etc can trade with the EU, of course they can, in that respect they have 'access', but it's not the same sort of access he's discussing.
The UK will still be able to trade with the EU regardless, just 'outside the club' and not 'inside it' - so we'd pay additional taxes etc - unless we somehow negotiate something special.

 

[Bodicoteblue]

So America, China, Russia and the rest of the planet have no access to the single market?

No , not automatic access ,they have to negotiate and have their application ratified by the EU.
And then they have to meet the conditions , and abide by the rules and regulations applied to them by the EU, if they wish to trade with the single market.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Dont worry mate.....I know it wasnt a trick question...just worried I was coming across too serious but really I'm enjoying the disucssion.....what are your feelings about this tho? (below)...you still really think we can have our cake and eat it....and agree a special trading agreement that no other country in the history of the EU has ever got? Access to single market without freedom of movement, even tho its one of the principles the EU single market was founded on?....they go hand in hand mate, whether we like it or not...


From a Independent report earlier last month.

"Freedom of movement of people is one of the four principles on which the EU single market is founded. The others are free movement of goods, capital and services"

" If we want to have continuing access to the single market, we will, like Norway, have to allow free movement for EU nationals even if we are no longer in the EU. We can only “gain control of our borders” if we leave the single market and its barrier free access to 500,000,000 consumers"

Your faith in the EUs ability to manage without its second biggest contributor and maintain the poorer southern countries is admirable. I'm afraid that I have little to no faith.

They've already identified a "black hole" of £20bn (which according to monkfish is a trifling amount) that we are going to have to Contribute to despite Camerons agreement (that has not been agreed to by all member states).

The EU without us will not cope. How that will pan out who knows, just my view is they haven't the reserves or funding to survive in their current format. How they adapt will be both interesting and informative. It is then that we will learn how influential we will be at the negotiating table, until then, it is all pure speculation.... on all sides!

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

So America, China, Russia and the rest of the planet have no access to the single market?

Hi mate....no expert as you can tell! ;) but there is alot of difference between trading with the single market and being part of it...becuase of our links with the EU already and the amount of export we sell to them....we need free movement of goods, people and capital as well.....completely different agreement and with those things comes freedom of movement....If we want to pay the extra tariffs a country like America pay....you can forget about ever getting a better deal than what we have now......"outs" want you to believe you can have your cake and eat it.....thats just isnt going to happen...

 

[FanchesterCity]

Our largest export sector is the motor industry, and of that sector 51% is exports to the EU. If we leave the EU, vehicles and components manufactured here become subject to import taxes into the EU which makes production in the UK less attractive. It's hard to say if it's less attractive enough to pull out, but it's certainly less attractive.
This is a similar situation to Rolls Royce making engines for Airbus, but if we leave the EU those engine costs go up - causing the Airbus chairman to express serious warnings over leaving the EU.

Once again though, there are like to be instances of firms who will benefit from leaving too, but they're unlikely to stack up the size of the big boys like the car and aerospace industries.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Like I'm telling you... All is not well, THEY NEED US!

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/ci...EEDS-Britain-in-the-EU-or-euro-could-go-UNDER

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

No they don't.

By 'access' he means internal access in order to benefit from the tax reductions and existing trade agreements with many other nations, as well as protection measures.
America, China etc can trade with the EU, of course they can, in that respect they have 'access', but it's not the same sort of access he's discussing.
The UK will still be able to trade with the EU regardless, just 'outside the club' and not 'inside it' - so we'd pay additional taxes etc - unless we somehow negotiate something special.

Thanks FanchesterCity......only just noticed your response...good to see we both came to to same answer!; )

 

[Silva_Spell]

Nails it.

 

[FanchesterCity]

If we leave, the EU will have suffered a huge blow, but that probably doesn't help us anyway. If the EU collapses, or even just starts to go into meltdown, struggling EU businesses (many of whom have investments in the UK) is still likely to be a negative for us.

If the big boys in Europe started to get into trouble (e.g. after an EU collapse and every nation for themselves), you then have a situation of which external countries (or rather businesses in those countries) can best exploit their troubles. We'd then be competing with the USA and China to rape and pillage them. Not good news for us.

We need a healthy EU, in or out.

 

[Metalartin]

Like I'm telling you... All is not well, THEY NEED US!

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/ci...EEDS-Britain-in-the-EU-or-euro-could-go-UNDER

Doesn't mean we don't need them or that leaving wont hurt us in the long run... as stated above how would an EU in ruin help us, furthermore if we do get the blame for it wouldn't all of them more likely screw us in the future at every opportunity?

 

[sir baconface]

Your right...but I also know, if I stand in front of a moving bus, its going to run me over!.....

A good angel could swoop down and pluck you to safety.

Think good angel, think Boris... ;)

 

[smudgedj]

This is a similar situation to Rolls Royce making engines for Airbus, but if we leave the EU those engine costs go up - causing the Airbus chairman to express serious warnings over leaving the EU.

Once again though, there are like to be instances of firms who will benefit from leaving too, but they're unlikely to stack up the size of the big boys like the car and aerospace industries.

It´ll be cheaper, the pound will take a hammering against the Euro, and as we all know the French own Airbus and Germany own Rolls Royce and both companies work in the Euro. They will be getting more pound for their Euros. Makes it cheaper for them.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

Your faith in the EUs ability to manage without its second biggest contributor and maintain the poorer southern countries is admirable. I'm afraid that I have little to no faith.

They've already identified a "black hole" of £20bn (which according to monkfish is a trifling amount) that we are going to have to Contribute to despite Camerons agreement (that has not been agreed to by all member states).

The EU without us will not cope. How that will pan out who knows, just my view is they haven't the reserves or funding to survive in their current format. How they adapt will be both interesting and informative. It is then that we will learn how influential we will be at the negotiating table, until then, it is all pure speculation.... on all sides!

Looking at it from another angle then...If we really believe we that important to the EU then our actions are not just going to risk the UK economy...it going to risk a whole contient! .makes the risk even greater...this isnt about us and them....we need them to make our economy work...if they cant cope, then we cant cope...whether we in or out....better to work together surely?

 

[moggymoz]

First time ever I'll be voting on anything... (aged 47) but I'll be getting off my fat arse and making sure it's an "out" from me.

 

[sir baconface]

The utilities in this country are mostly owned to some extent by Europeans (Dutch , Belgians , Germans) or in the case of EdF , by French taxpayers ( as opposed to the British taxpayers , who built the business). Anyone who thinks we can unilaterally take these back ( perhaps we could nationalise them like the Egyptians did with the Suez Canal in the 50's) is deluded. Our water and electricity and gas will be controlled by countries and businesses outside our field of influence.

Why would we want to take them back? We aren't at war. We have zillions of foreign-owned companies in the UK of both EU and non-EU nationality.

I've even heard of a football club with Abu Dhabi ownership.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

Looking at it from another angle then...If we really believe we that important to the EU then our actions are not just going to risk the UK economy...it going to risk a whole contient! .makes the risk even greater...this isnt about us and them....we need them to make our economy work...if they cant cope, then we cant cope...whether we in or out....better to work together surely?

Do you not see that this perceived risk is why we would have no problem getting an amicable trade agreement with the EU whilst freeing us up to do our own deals with the rest of the world. Take a look at Switzerland's trade with non EU countries compared to the EU (per capita) there is no comparison because Switzerland as a single entity can always do the deal which is best for itself without having to worry about Greek cheese or French wine or Polish Sausage!