John Stones

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Dax777 said:
God no.
Ronaldo, Zlatan, Bale, Griezmann, Pogba, Kroos, Ozil, Neuer, Hart, Kane, Payet, Lewandoski, Muller, Busquet, DeBryune, Koke, Silva, Alaba, Ramos, Hummels, Rakitic, Modric, De Gea,....

That's about 20 without checking. No he is not the 5 best player in the Euros. I doubt he is the 5th best at his club.
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Is that list based on emotion or quantative data?
 
Shaelumstash said:
Is that list based on emotion or quantative data?
Click to expand...
Quantitative data of their performances in their individual leagues prior to the tournament. I added goalies for good measure. You can add Dele Alli, Hector, Boateng, and the Everton kid to that list. And if you want a complete list of every player better than Milner statistically, give me an hour and half I'll oblige you. But since you have some stat that deems Milner the 5 th best player at the Euros - you mind sharing with us?

The site, their metric, and criteria for reaching that conclusion.

PS: to keep this on topic, Stones isn't better than Milner statistically, even though I consider him a better player.

That's for you FI :)
 
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Dax777 said:
Quantitative data of their performances in their individual leagues prior to the tournament. I added goalies for good measure. You can add Dele Alli, Hector, Boateng, and the Everton kid to that list. And if you want a complete list of every player better than Milner statistically, give me an hour and half I'll oblige you. But since you have some stat that deems Milner the 5 th best player at the Euros - you mind sharing with us?

The site, their metric, and criteria for reaching that conclusion.

PS: to keep this on topic, Stones isn't better than Milner statistically, even though I consider him a better player.

That's for you FI :)
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I can help with that, as I spat my tea over my laptop when it was mentioned on the BBC site

http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2016/players/index.html

If you're doing stats and Milner comes out 5th best, surely you'd Ctrl+alt+del and try again
 
Dax777 said:
Quantitative data of their performances in their individual leagues prior to the tournament. I added goalies for good measure. You can add Dele Alli, Hector, Boateng, and the Everton kid to that list. And if you want a complete list of every player better than Milner statistically, give me an hour and half I'll oblige you. But since you have some stat that deems Milner the 5 th best player at the Euros - you mind sharing with us?

The site, their metric, and criteria for reaching that conclusion.

PS: to keep this on topic, Stones isn't better than Milner statistically, even though I consider him a better player.

That's for you FI :)
Click to expand...

You realise that Milner was declared the 5th best player going to the Euros, based on his statistics for club and country this year don't you?
 
Dax777 said:
89% to 87%
22 to 18 metres.
4.3 to 1.8 long balls
47.3 to 43.6 touches per-game

The stats suggest he completes passes at a better rate, and at longer depths, is more involved in team plays and way more lon passes. Most agree intuitively that he is a far superior passer to Mangala. If you really want to discredit someone, attack their strength and argue it's a weakness. If enough people buy it, you win.

Nice try. I think most anti Stones folk have settled on 'error prone' as his weakness, best you join them.
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No thanks.
Anyway they could play together as Stones is right footed and nominally a RCH (who can play LCH and RB).
Not that they probably will as Everton are digging their heels in and it will cost a lot more than we are prepared to pay to him. He just doesn't have the ability to match the sum Everton would require to let him go. Indeed we could probably get Marquinhos from PSG or Raphaël Varane from Real Madrid for the amount of dosh it would take Everton to let him go.
 
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All players are assigned a primary position for which they are expected to play the majority of the time.

The player categories are defined as: goalkeepers, full-backs, central defenders, defensive midfielders, central midfielders, attacking midfielders, wingers and forwards.

The data considered for each player is specific to the position type. For example, tackles and interceptions are considered to be key statistics for defensive midfielders, while successful dribbles and crosses are core stats for wingers.

The algorithm uses player stats from all matches, club and national team, and updates after these matches are played. During UEFA EURO 2016, the rankings will update during every match.

Weighting
As the Barometer acts as a form tracker, the more recent the match, the higher the weighting assigned to the data from it i.e. player stats from yesterday are given more significance than those from last week. If a player is not active (e.g. due to injury or non-selection), his ranking will decrease over that period of inactivity.

Additional weighting is attributed for quality of opposition using UEFA coefficients as the foundation of the values.

Once UEFA EURO 2016 starts, statistical events (e.g. goals, assists, tackles, saves) for the 552 players will be given a significantly higher weighting to maintain an accurate ranking of those performing well in France
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And the above was what they used. The highlighted underscores the problem.

It's an attempt to show who is in form. If your last 2 friendlies were great, you shoot to the top.

Players who are rested because they are guaranteed spots in their squad fall farther behind. If you played in the Champs or Europa final, you get bumped up.

It's a who is on form rating and not a who is good ratings. That gives more credence to recency of performance than performance over a period.

So no, Milner is NOT statistically the 5 best player in the Euros and his performance over the last year statistically doesn't suggest he is.
 
Ajm1985 said:
You realise that Milner was declared the 5th best player going to the Euros, based on his statistics for club and country this year don't you?
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No he wasn't. He was declared the 5th most "in form" based on a flawed metric that favored recency of perfomance over cumulative performance.
 
Dax777 said:
All players are assigned a primary position for which they are expected to play the majority of the time.

The player categories are defined as: goalkeepers, full-backs, central defenders, defensive midfielders, central midfielders, attacking midfielders, wingers and forwards.

The data considered for each player is specific to the position type. For example, tackles and interceptions are considered to be key statistics for defensive midfielders, while successful dribbles and crosses are core stats for wingers.

The algorithm uses player stats from all matches, club and national team, and updates after these matches are played. During UEFA EURO 2016, the rankings will update during every match.

Weighting
As the Barometer acts as a form tracker, the more recent the match, the higher the weighting assigned to the data from it i.e. player stats from yesterday are given more significance than those from last week. If a player is not active (e.g. due to injury or non-selection), his ranking will decrease over that period of inactivity.

Additional weighting is attributed for quality of opposition using UEFA coefficients as the foundation of the values.

Once UEFA EURO 2016 starts, statistical events (e.g. goals, assists, tackles, saves) for the 552 players will be given a significantly higher weighting to maintain an accurate ranking of those performing well in France

And the above was what they used. The highlighted underscores the problem.

It's an attempt to show who is in form. If your last 2 friendlies were great, you shoot to the top.

Players who are rested because they are guaranteed spots in their squad fall farther behind. If you played in the Champs or Europa final, you get bumped up.

It's a who is on form rating and not a who is good ratings. That gives more credence to recency of performance than performance over a period.

So no, Milner is NOT statistically the 5 best player in the Euros and his performance over the last year statistically doesn't suggest he is.
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It's easy to add emphasis to the bits that suit your argument by putting them in bold.

You don't know how heavily it is weighted towards recent performances. You've just read that line and assumed it must be very heavily weighted because it suits your point of view.

However weighted they are, Milner was one of the top assist makers in the Premier League last season. His pass completion was good, his ground covered, his sprits were very good. His stats are very impressive. But as everyone keeps pointing out to you, stats don't tell you the whole story.

Take your list of 20 players you think are better than Milner. At least 16 of them don't have statistics that are as impressive as Milner. But you have decided they are all better than him. I assume you don't have a comprehensive statistical analysis of each player to come to that decision.

Rather, your opinion is based on what you have seen from them. The effect they have on games, the decisions they make. Even, god forbid, your favourite catch phrases, it's based on "emotion" and your "flawed memory".

Statistics can be a helpful tool for certain things, but don't let them cloud your judgement. Have some confidence in yourself to form an opinion.
 
Shaelumstash said:
It's easy to add emphasis to the bits that suit your argument by putting them in bold.

You don't know how heavily it is weighted towards recent performances. You've just read that line and assumed it must be very heavily weighted because it suits your point of view.

However weighted they are, Milner was one of the top assist makers in the Premier League last season. His pass completion was good, his ground covered, his sprits were very good. His stats are very impressive. But as everyone keeps pointing out to you, stats don't tell you the whole story.

Take your list of 20 players you think are better than Milner. At least 16 of them don't have statistics that are as impressive as Milner. But you have decided they are all better than him. I assume you don't have a comprehensive statistical analysis of each player to come to that decision.

Rather, your opinion is based on what you have seen from them. The effect they have on games, the decisions they make. Even, god forbid, your favourite catch phrases, it's based on "emotion" and your "flawed memory".

Statistics can be a helpful tool for certain things, but don't let them cloud your judgement. Have some confidence in yourself to form an opinion.
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Dude, it's their words not mine. A game today his more important than q game last week.

They are not rating who is Good, they are rating who is in form. Their best attempt at doing that statistically required them to weigh most recent games more heavily.

Whoscored rating on accumulated stats over the
year.

Ronaldo 7.99
Zlatan, 8.29
Bale, 8.12
Griezmann, 7.50
Pogba, 7.82
Kroos, 7.33
Ozil, 7.66
Kane, 7.53
Payet, 7.74
Lewandoski, 7.58
Muller, 7.49
Busquet, 7.28
DeBryune, 7.45
Koke, 7.49
Silva, 7.28
Hummels, 7.34
Modric, 7.37

Milner 7.21

Only Alaba, Rakitic, Ramos. From my list have statistically inferior rstingd. Like I said, my emotions and stats are quite well aligned. So which 16 from my list were you referring to?
 
Dax777 said:
Dude, it's their words not mine. A game today his more important than q game last week.

They are not rating who is Good, they are rating who is in form. Their best attempt at doing that statistically required them to weigh most recent games more heavily.

Whoscored rating on accumulated stats over the
year.

Ronaldo 7.99
Zlatan, 8.29
Bale, 8.12
Griezmann, 7.50
Pogba, 7.82
Kroos, 7.33
Ozil, 7.66
Kane, 7.53
Payet, 7.74
Lewandoski, 7.58
Muller, 7.49
Busquet, 7.28
DeBryune, 7.45
Koke, 7.49
Silva, 7.28
Hummels, 7.34
Modric, 7.37

Milner 7.21

Only Alaba, Rakitic, Ramos. From my list have statistically inferior rstingd. Like I said, my emotions and stats are quite well aligned. So which 16 from my list were you referring to?
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So "Whoscored" are the oracle on player performance are they? Their algorithm is just right, whereas the one done for the Euro's is fatally flawed?

Their words are that there is weight given to more recent games. That doesn't mean it's the only stat that's relevant does it. It simply means some weight is given to form. How much weight is pure speculation.

According to your "Whoscored" list Ibrahimovic was the best player on that list. Do you think that's an accurate reflection of how good he is?
 
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