EU referendum

[FanchesterCity]

EDF - our second biggest evergy provider - French
E.ON - our third biggest energy provider - German
nPower - our fourth biggest energy provider - German
Scottish Power - our fifth biggest energy provider - Spanish
Even our largest energy provider - British Gas, gets 44% of it's gas via Europe and Norway with another 13% shipped in via tankers

EE - our largest mobile network operator - German/French
O2 - our second largest mobile network operator - Spanish

British Airways - 50% Spanish

I could go on...

When we say 'We can prosper without Europe' - yes, we can, but 'we' isn't the UK government, it's businesses who are doing the deal first and foremost. THEY could prosper, that's what we're really talking about - which in turn helps employment and prosperity here. However, of those companies that are doing most of this foreign trading - most have a vested interest in EU. They want the smoothest possible interaction between the UK and EU.

It's the politics within the EU that truly needs reform, not the business.

 

[blueonblue]

Whereas no-one can be certain, people just need to use a bit of common sense and the answers become obvious

Is it likely that the EU will wave goodbye to their biggest single market, or that a tariff war will break out when we run a deficit of two to one, interesting FACT, our GDP growth peaked in the year we joined and has DECLINED every year since we have been in the EU.

Is it likely that adding 220,000* migrants EVERY YEAR to the population (Plus the increase from births) will make it easier to get a school place/Hospital bed/GP appointment.

Is it likely that pay and working conditions as well as the number of jobs will rise while a surplus of cheap labour undermines what has previously been fought for.

Is it likely that the EU will increase what it buys from us given that the % figure has fallen every year since 1999, while trade with the rest of the world has increased.

Is it likely that you want to live in a country that is in control of its own destiny, makes its own laws, and has the right and power to elect or un-elect the people who make decisions that impact on your daily life.

Vote out.

*200,000 is the figure used by Osborne in his "Treasury report", you may well ask why his own governments policy to reduce it to "Tens of thousands" was not used, but then that would make the case for leave by further discrediting the nonsense of £4600 loss per household.

 

[Monkfish]

The EU has always been Anti Union Mr Fish...I was always going to vote out...it's a capitalist boys club who favours the employer rather than the employee...if you want to stand up for workers rights you can only vote leave...socialist worker says the same

Vote to Exit Left

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/42232/Fight+to+exit+left+after+vote+on+EU+is+called

The modern world is anti-union Mr Bish. One thing leave will achieve is less workers in the UK full stop. Then of course the right can blame the 'benefits scroungers' for future problems. Then single mothers, then back to the Asians bringing in all their relatives...

The left is mixed on whether to leave the EU, Socialist Worker is not 'the left'

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

.

In defense of us old fogies, there is also a bigger "disillusionment" factor among the older generation. Many will have voted to join in 1976 and have since seen the Common Market turn into something completely different to what was promised. Whereas for younger voters their opinions are less likely to be tainted by the experience of the past 40 years, are likely to be more idealistic.

Cheers mate..good points!

 

[MillionMilesAway]

The bookies are also factoring in the "Don't knows". Most of the headline polling figures exclude "Don't knows". The bookies will know that historically "Don't knows" end up voting heavily for the status quo. So punters are betting on "Leave" because they think they're getting very generous odds when in fact the headline polls are misleading.

I saw something yesterday regarding the polls at the election.

Telephone polls (cost c. £10k) were almost all very close.
Internet polls (cost c. £1k) were almost all wrong, but close to the publicised figure.

You pays your money, you get results.

You can bet safely that the bookies know this!

 

[FanchesterCity]

Is it likely that the EU will wave goodbye to their biggest single market, or that a tariff war will break out when we run a deficit of two to one, interesting FACT, our GDP growth peaked in the year we joined and has DECLINED every year since we have been in the EU.

Is it likely that adding 220,000* migrants EVERY YEAR to the population (Plus the increase from births) will make it easier to get a school place/Hospital bed/GP appointment.

Is it likely that pay and working conditions as well as the number of jobs will rise while a surplus of cheap labour undermines what has previously been fought for.

Is it likely that the EU will increase what it buys from us given that the % figure has fallen every year since 1999, while trade with the rest of the world has increased.

Is it likely that you want to live in a country that is in control of its own destiny, makes its own laws, and has the right and power to elect or un-elect the people who make decisions that impact on your daily life.

Vote out.

*200,000 is the figure used by Osborne in his "Treasury report", you may well ask why his own governments policy to reduce it to "Tens of thousands" was not used, but then that would make the case for leave by further discrediting the nonsense of £4600 loss per household.

Is it likely that our concerns about immigration and governance within the EU (political and social issues) are going to result in a 'Leave' vote? - quite possibly
Is that decision to leave then going to hinder (not end) 50% of our international trade - yes
Is the 'future prosperity' we depend on dependant on the success of those businesses (not the governments) - yes

So why would we hinder those businesses we are relying on for prosperity?

Vote In.


We have a political and social issue with the EU - that's the core problem, and that's what we need to try and fix. If we can't do that, and HAVE to leave the EU (which I totally understand) - just don't pretend it's a huge relief for business, it's not, it's a hindrance and it'll cost us.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Is it likely that the EU will wave goodbye to their biggest single market, or that a tariff war will break out when we run a deficit of two to one, interesting FACT, our GDP growth peaked in the year we joined and has DECLINED every year since we have been in the EU.

Is it likely that adding 220,000* migrants EVERY YEAR to the population (Plus the increase from births) will make it easier to get a school place/Hospital bed/GP appointment.

Is it likely that pay and working conditions as well as the number of jobs will rise while a surplus of cheap labour undermines what has previously been fought for.

Is it likely that the EU will increase what it buys from us given that the % figure has fallen every year since 1999, while trade with the rest of the world has increased.

Is it likely that you want to live in a country that is in control of its own destiny, makes its own laws, and has the right and power to elect or un-elect the people who make decisions that impact on your daily life.

Vote out.

*200,000 is the figure used by Osborne in his "Treasury report", you may well ask why his own governments policy to reduce it to "Tens of thousands" was not used, but then that would make the case for leave by further discrediting the nonsense of £4600 loss per household.

Firstly gdp hasn't declined every year since joining the EU it has grown every year bar three recessions, if you mean it's been lower than the early seventies bubble that came just before oil crashed you'd be right.

As for some of the other questions Goebels would be proud !! - and what does it matter anyway the EU is illegal and you,re taking us out - I have even taken this the third option for the vote at William hill at 100-1.

If you are going to ask common sense questions you ask neutral common sense questions - you could rephrase them to get another answer. It really isn't that sophisticated to think up biased question with incorrect facts.

Is it likely that flooding the market with low standard low cost goods is going to result in higher wages? Etc etc

You could just ask unbiased questions like will in or out most likely be good for mid and long term growth?

Will we be better placed to trad with Europe in or out of the single market?

Will our economy still grow with lower immigration?

I mean that really is gold!

 

[inchy14]

Is it likely that our concerns about immigration and governance within the EU (political and social issues) is going to result in a 'Leave' vote? - quite possibly
Is that decision to leave then going to hinder (not end) 50% of our international trade - yes
Is the 'future prosperity' we depend on dependant on the success of those businesses (not the governments) - yes

So why would we hinder those businesses we are relying on for prosperity?

Vote In.


We have a political and social issue with the EU - that's the core problem, and that's what we need to try and fix. If we can't do that, and HAVE to leave the EU (which I totally understand) - just don't pretend it's a huge relief for business, it's not, it's a hindrance and it'll cost us.

All well and good saying that, but if we vote to remain you can forget change, that'll give the green light to the EU to push on with a federalist Europe, we'll end up paying taxes into one giant pot, an EU army will be created and finally they'll push for us to adopt the euro.

It's not just a vote against what the EU is now but what it'll become in the future.

Vote OUT if you don't want further integration as that's what's around the corner.

 

[EalingBlue2]

I saw something yesterday regarding the polls at the election.

Telephone polls (cost c. £10k) were almost all very close.
Internet polls (cost c. £1k) were almost all wrong, but close to the publicised figure.

You pays your money, you get results.

You can bet safely that the bookies know this!

Online is much harder to get an incredibly accurate and representative sample and far more prone to biases in time though it will become as reliable as phone polling especially as mobiles replace landlines, even now mixes are needed. The big question is whether either side will be understated as people are afraid to admit voting one way as this can't be factored or calibrated for. In Scotland it was remainders who were a little reticent but could it be the other way in this vote because of immigration?

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

All well and good saying that, but if we vote to remain you can forget change, that'll give the green light to the EU to push on with a federalist Europe, we'll end up paying taxes into one giant pot, an EU army will be created and finally they'll push for us to adopt the euro.

It's not just a vote against what the EU is now but what it'll become in the future.

Vote OUT if you don't want further integration as that's what's around the corner.

As Bobby would say...only this

 

[EalingBlue2]

All well and good saying that, but if we vote to remain you can forget change, that'll give the green light to the EU to push on with a federalist Europe, we'll end up paying taxes into one giant pot, an EU army will be created and finally they'll push for us to adopt the euro.

It's not just a vote against what the EU is now but what it'll become in the future.

Vote OUT if you don't want further integration as that's what's around the corner.

You could as easily say vote in if you don't want to go backwards, we should be driving Europe forward shaping its future not cowering in the past and trying to bring the whole thing down

 

[MillionMilesAway]

All well and good saying that, but if we vote to remain you can forget change, that'll give the green light to the EU to push on with a federalist Europe, we'll end up paying taxes into one giant pot, an EU army will be created and finally they'll push for us to adopt the euro.

It's not just a vote against what the EU is now but what it'll become in the future.

Vote OUT if you don't want further integration as that's what's around the corner.

This feels like the nuclear option based on scary predictions.

Just because Juncker says he wants an army (and I don't know what he said and in what language), I don't believe there's any chance of an EU army within 25 years, or that the euro will be forced on us.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Is it likely that the EU will wave goodbye to their biggest single market, or that a tariff war will break out when we run a deficit of two to one, interesting FACT, our GDP growth peaked in the year we joined and has DECLINED every year since we have been in the EU.

No, it's not likely. It is in fact a cast iron certainty. We won't have a trade agreement without tariffs. 100.000000% certainty. Unless you think Boris will agree to free movement of labour, working time directive and supremecy of the European Courts? No, thought not.

Is it likely that adding 220,000* migrants EVERY YEAR to the population (Plus the increase from births) will make it easier to get a school place/Hospital bed/GP appointment.

No, but it's also irrelevant. Because (a) the numbers will probably decline as Europe moves into growth and (b) if we leave we won't be doing anything about it anyway.

Is it likely that pay and working conditions as well as the number of jobs will rise while a surplus of cheap labour undermines what has previously been fought for.

Yes, as they have continued to do for the past 10 years+

Is it likely that the EU will increase what it buys from us given that the % figure has fallen every year since 1999, while trade with the rest of the world has increased.

Definitely not if we leave. It will decline MUCH, MUCH faster if we leave.

Is it likely that you want to live in a country that is in control of its own destiny, makes its own laws, and has the right and power to elect or un-elect the people who make decisions that impact on your daily life.

We do already. We control virtually every single thing in this country that matters. What do you think are the MOST important things to people in this country, the things that are fought over and over which general elections are won and lost every 5 years? The things that REALLY matter?

The NHS
Schools & education
Jobs & employment
Defence, the armed forces and security
The policce
Welfare
Taxes
The economy, how well it's doing, money supply and fiscal policies etc
The environment

Can you think of anything else? Off the top of my head that's about it and we control ALL of these things. We don't need to "take back control", we already have it.

 

[YPhrunts]

[QUOTE="Pino,

For me there is only one issue, which is can we remove the people who are making our laws? Everything flows from that one single issue.

If we can’t then we are living in a dictatorship and are no better than N.Korea, China etc, is that what we are really prepared to live under?[/QUOTE]

That is also the point for me mate. All the rest of it stems from that single issue which leads to our inability to control illegal immigration through lack of border control which most people have singled out as their reason to vote out. It's probably down to our useless Home Secretary who has admitted the the ECH is stymying her ability to act. The paperwork takes so long to process that most of them have fucked off into the ether only to appear hanging about in groups in our cities or living in car parks. That's what we see and that's where the whole thing gets sharply focussed. It ALL boils down to this....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ges-fight-back-against-europes-imperial-cour/

 

[cibaman]

All well and good saying that, but if we vote to remain you can forget change, that'll give the green light to the EU to push on with a federalist Europe, we'll end up paying taxes into one giant pot, an EU army will be created and finally they'll push for us to adopt the euro.

It's not just a vote against what the EU is now but what it'll become in the future.

Vote OUT if you don't want further integration as that's what's around the corner.

A federalist Europe is a dead duck. There's more chance of Mangala finishing next season as our top scorer than there is of a federalist Europe being formed in my lifetime.

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

A federalist Europe is a dead duck. There's more chance of Mangala finishing next season as our top scorer than there is of a federalist Europe being formed in my lifetime.

In your lifetime being the operative word...most leave voters are thinking of the long term bigger picture...the EU will go one of two ways...it will fail spectacularly taking us with it...or in time it will become United States Of Europe...either way...we are fucked

 

[FanchesterCity]

We aren't the only nation in the EU with concerns about creeping powers and certainly not the only ones with concerns about immigration.
I don't disagree that we seem to be banging our heads against a brick wall when dealing with the EU - sometimes, possibly oftentimes. I don't think that's in dispute and at the end of the day, If people thing it's beyond all hope, then there is no option but to vote out.

My concern is that 'out' is being promoted as breath of fresh air - the waving of a magic wand to make us great again (we're already pretty great though).
It's not the UK government/s that are going to be making us prosperous - it's the businesses.
The 'control' we are suddenly going to have isn't real - the businesses control themselves. Governments can try to influence the businesses with regulations etc, but it's relatively minor adjustments. The juggernaut of business is not under the control of government, certainly not in a capitalist western world. Ergo our future prosperity is not under our control, it's under the control of business.

Being out of the EU is just bad for business. There's so much spin on this, but anything that slightly hinders trade between willing neighbouring nations, let alone a formal union is bad for business.

We should be honest with the nation and tell them the truth - we can't live with the EU's increasing governance that go well beyond a 'common market', and the free movement of people isn't working - so needs radical reform and rethink. We aren't against movement, it just needs to be more controlled (ironically!). Because because the EU won't budge, we may have to leave. IF we leave, it's going to mean giving up the EU trade benefits, which will have an impact on businesses. Almost certainly a negative one. A decade down the line, we might even prosper from the decision, and wonder why we didn't do it sooner, or we could regret it. We just don't know. But we value our lawmaking and immigration so highly, we are willing to take the hit.

THAT would be honest.

 

[FanchesterCity]

A federalist Europe is a dead duck. There's more chance of Mangala finishing next season as our top scorer than there is of a federalist Europe being formed in my lifetime.

I agree, there's plenty of other EU nations who have a watchful eye on Germany and attempts to 'rule the world (or EU).

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

We aren't the only nation in the EU with concerns about creeping powers and certainly not the only ones with concerns about immigration.
I don't disagree that we seem to be banging our heads against a brick wall when dealing with the EU - sometimes, possibly oftentimes. I don't think that's in dispute and at the end of the day, If people thing it's beyond all hope, then there is no option but to vote out.

My concern is that 'out' is being promoted as breath of fresh air - the waving of a magic wand to make us great again (we're already pretty great though).
It's not the UK government/s that are going to be making us prosperous - it's the businesses.
The 'control' we are suddenly going to have isn't real - the businesses control themselves. Governments can try to influence the businesses with regulations etc, but it's relatively minor adjustments. The juggernaut of business is not under the control of government, certainly not in a capitalist western world. Ergo our future prosperity is not under our control, it's under the control of business.

Being out of the EU is just bad for business. There's so much spin on this, but anything that slightly hinders trade between willing neighbouring nations, let alone a formal union is bad for business.

We should be honest with the nation and tell them the truth - we can't live with the EU's increasing governance that go well beyond a 'common market', and the free movement of people isn't working - so needs radical reform and rethink. We aren't against movement, it just needs to be more controlled (ironically!). Because because the EU won't budge, we nay have to leave. IF we leave, it's going to mean giving up the EU trade benefits, which will have an impact on businesses. Almost certainly a negative one. A decade down the line, we might even prosper from the decision, and wonder why we didn't do it sooner, or we could regret it. We just don't know. But we value our lawmaking and immigration so highly, we are willing to take the hit.

THAT would be honest.

With small and medium-sized firms freed from EU regulation, there could be a jobs boom. More than 90% of the UK economy is not involved in trade with the EU...yet still bears the burden of these rules...this comes from the Bruges Group.

The Eurosceptic think tank claims pulling out of the EU but staying in the EEA would create 1 million jobs...hardly bad for business

 

[yep]

Remainers are worried about the future of the £ and the single market.

The Eurozone are worried presently about the Euro and the European Project.

Spot the difference? The European Project is important ( with the single currency being a part of that) not economics!

"European leaders weren't stupid or self indulgent when they decided to move ahead with the euro, without fiscal union or strong Europe-level democracy. They just cared more about politics and international security than economics. That is like saying the builders of the high storey apartment building which fell over in China didn't do anything wrong because they were more concerned about creating housing.

In a blistering attack, David Folkerts-Landau, Deutsche's chief economist ,suggested the ECB had "lost the plot" and that its "desperate" actions raised the risk of a potentially "catastrophic" ( a favourite word with the Remainers?) mistake by the central bank.The European Central Bank's loose monetary policy risks destroying the European project, Deutsche Bank has warned.The benefits from ever-looser policy are diminishing while the litany of distortions, perversions and disincentives grows by the day. Savers are punished and speculators rewarded. Bad companies survive while good companies are too scared to invest."

Another problem with the Euro is that the European Central Bank is mandated to protect against inflation, not unemployment. It does not have the authority to deliver the kind of stimulus that was provided by the Fed in the US, and is desperately needed in Europe. This is the Euro’s fatal flaw.

Worried about the future outside the EU? Perhaps you should be more worried if we stay?