EU referendum

[Chippy_boy]

How high are these tariffs going to be?

It will vary across sectors, but between 2 or 3 percent and up to 9 or 10. I had thought it was at the lower end but was surprised to find it's nearly 10% on American cars.

You see the problem is, the EU *cannot* agree to giving us open access to the EU markets on better terms than all the other countries have got. How could they, without inviting everyone else to leave? And on the other hand our new PM (Boris?) *cannot* agree to be free movement of labour, the working time directive, supremecy of the ECJ, etc can he? He can't take us out of Europe on a ticket of getting away from all those things, only to sign us up to them again.

So we have two mutually exclusive, mutually incompatible, irreconcilable positions. We've heard how it takes *years* to get a trade deal when on minor things need to be ironed out. In that context, trying to bring irreconcilable differences together will take decades, if it's ever possible. (How long is it since Turkey applied to join the EU?)

So we won't have a trade deal and will have to trade with Europe under WHO terms, and this will be devastating for our manufacturing businesses. Dyson doesn't give a shit because (a) he's a cretin and (b) he doesn't make anything in the UK anymore.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Spot on. Dyson thinks he's contributing to Britain by sitting in is Executive Box at Arsenal. HIs pure greed didn't allow him to consider the welfare of 900 UK families! Brexit don't give a toss about workers' rights.

Here are your original words about brexiters not giving a shit about workers rights.....

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

If reduced pay means I am no longer held to ransom by plumbers and electricians (as was the case ten years ago) that will do me. Remember when there was a routine £50 call out charge before a plumber or electrician inspected a job?

Here you are protecting workers rights.....

 

[urban genie]

One thing I would like someone to answer is, if we leave what happens to our infrastructure Arriva, the bus and transport group, is owned by Germany's Deutsche Bahn, while other rail contracts are european run British Energy, the nuclear operator, belongs to France's EDF while EON and Npower are German while scotish power is spanish. Also BAA, which owns six UK airports is owned by Spain's Ferrovial and there are examples of ports and water companies in non british ownership.

So if we leave what stops these companies that are european from hiking prices? Also the last few years united utilities have been relaying water pipes all over using money from the european funds, is there enough money available to subsidise UU if we leave to the same extent? I am not fusssed that much on imigration people come, people go. but I am concerened that we have a good road and transport systems, up to date water and energy infrastructure and other vital infrastructure projects are secure.

These things are not made clear amongst the poltical point scoring from both sides.

Looks to me that all of boris's taking back control rhetoric is pure bullshit on his part as we don't own or control basic things, as his lot sold it all off.

 

[Ghandi's Flip Flops]

We live in a society where it is always somebody else's fault. Too many people want to find a scapegoat and blame all of their problems or failings on something or somebody else. A large basis of the immigration debate seems to be based on this misguided view that the "foreigners are coming over here and taking our jobs". It's an absolute bollocks argument and in my experience I often find that it's the foreigners who come over here who are less likely to progress in a job because of their accent rather than being handed things on a plate.

Good post. But here's a flip side to the argument.

A few years back my kids school was rebuilt. Within it was a room designated to be a 'community' room. The headmaster approached a number of parents to see if you could find uses for the room and get things organised. As we had 3 kids at the school and my Mrs wasn't working she got heavily involved. She sorta begged & borrowed and even got some funding from a school budget, and was able to set-up various groups using the room. Mother & Toddler groups, Parents coffee mornings etc. All of this being done by un-paid volunteers.

18 months on and things had become a real success, so much so that Sure-Start decided they wanted to get involved. They wanted to put 3 or 4 part time/full time paid people in to run & organise things, and further expand what was on offer.
And with this they wanted my Mrs to apply for one of the positions. The money was good and they were also willing to arrange for attendance/time off for Uni courses, so that relevant qualifications could be gained.

My Mrs applied, and was even coached/helped by one of the local Sure-Start managers for the application, and was considered by most to be a shoe-in for one of the positions.

So it kinda come as a shock to a lot of people when she wasn't successful and didn't get a position. And the main reason why she wasn't successful?
She couldn't speak 2 languages. The school came under Oldham's control and it seemed they had a policy where they looked more favourably at applicants that could speak more than just English (especially Urdu, Punjabi, Bangladeshi etc). 4 woman of Asian decent therefore got the positions.

Probably the saddest part was that not long after, one of them went on long term sick and another quit, and just over 12 months later things went pear shaped, and the groups etc all closed. And afaik the supposed 'community room' now just sits there not being used except as a school store room.

So i've never had any real issues about controlled immigration, but have seen first hand how uncontrolled immigration & the extra requirement it produces can have a detriment to native english people.

 

[SWP's back]

Here are your original words about brexiters not giving a shit about workers rights.....

Pretty open and shut.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Here are your original words about brexiters not giving a shit about workers rights.....

Thanks but I didnt need to be reminded since I wrote these words.

Here we go. I will give you a couple of examples in case it helps you to understand:
- ten years ago a plumber refused to work on my house because it wasn't an insurance job.

- I mentioned this to a friend last and he told a builder wouldnt repair a wall at his place because it wasn't an insurance job.

So you think that's an issue of workers rights lol! I am talking about not getting exploited!

It's a bit sad you feel the need to keep sticking up for a multi-millionaire who deprived 900 UK workers if an income.

I don't understand your "logic"?

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Ok but remainers often ask leavers to predict the future whereas leavers somehow know the future and are immune from global economic uncertainty.

If we leave I can say with some certainty.

We won't join the euro

We won't be forced to bail out failing Europe countries

We won't be forced to support new joiners

We will still be able to trade with the European Union

We will control our own laws

We will control our own immigration policy

We will not pay over 10 billion a year to the eu. (Net).

So if we stay in , over to you.......

At a guess:
we won't join the euro
we will be involved in any bailout.
New joiners - not really sure, there'll be some cost but some benefit too.
Trade - obviously
For the most part we do control our laws. A safety catch is removed from a lunatic government.
Immigration - very probably, with unclear effects
Peanuts (IMO). I have never really considered this significant (whatever the figure quoted is) as it is very difficult to put a pricetag on it.
Grumbling on the fringes but inside is better than railing from the outside and never being let back in on as good terms as we have now.

If we leave, I think this will happen:
the pound will sink like a stone. This may increase import sales figures, but presumably hit export sales and screw up pension pots as far as I know. Income from the economic sector will take a big hit.
less people willing to do the crap jobs, paying tax on doing so and producing stuff to sell, will be available. Too many British too snobbish to do the jobs (or can't afford to on the wages paid if somewhere like London).
when the economy fails, there's less safety backup(when PFI unravels, schools and hospitals will be owned by the company who built them, and not the state).
An Osborne/Johnson/Gove-led majority setting laws without anyone to stop them.
House prices fall (a good thing).

 

[SWP's back]

Thanks but I didnt need to be reminded since I wrote these words.

Maybe he's aware you misremember things.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Ok but remainers often ask leavers to predict the future whereas leavers somehow know the future and are immune from global economic uncertainty.

If we leave I can say with some certainty.

We won't join the euro

We won't be forced to bail out failing Europe countries

We won't be forced to support new joiners

We will still be able to trade with the European Union

We will control our own laws

We will control our own immigration policy

We will not pay over 10 billion a year to the eu. (Net).

So if we stay in , over to you.......

Good post! I do think you'll be waiting for sometime for a similar reply from the Remainers.

As you say, these are facts... Remainers, we're waiting!

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Thanks but I didnt need to be reminded since I wrote these words.

Here we go. I will give you a couple of examples in case it helps you to understand:
- ten years ago a plumber refused to work on my house because it wasn't an insurance job.

- I mentioned this to a friend last and he told a builder wouldnt repair a wall at his place because it wasn't an insurance job.

So you think that's an issue of workers rights lol! I am talking about not getting exploited!

It's a bit sad you feel the need to keep sticking up for a multi-millionaire who deprived 900 UK workers if an income.

I don't understand your "logic"?

Well do not say 30 millionish people who want to leave the European Union because they think the country would be a better fairer place because of it do not give a shit about workers rights then. A lot of us do...you don't. You care about what's best for you. Again, I can't argue with that that's as good a reason as any to vote remain. Good luck to you.

 

[SWP's back]

It's a bit sad you feel the need to keep sticking up for a multi-millionaire who deprived 900 UK workers if an income.

Why is it sad? Sir James Dyson CBE OM just did what you do with English plumbers. Just on a grander scale. There are people that will do things cheaper and thus he can sell his goods for X amount and still increase his profit margins.

He's in business for his shareholders.

How many Uk families do you provide for?

 

[BigJoe#1]

At a guess:
we won't join the euro
we will be involved in any bailout.
New joiners - not really sure, there'll be some cost but some benefit too.
Trade - obviously
For the most part we do control our laws. A safety catch is removed from a lunatic government.
Immigration - very probably, with unclear effects
Peanuts (IMO). I have never really considered this significant (whatever the figure quoted is) as it is very difficult to put a pricetag on it.
Grumbling on the fringes but inside is better than railing from the outside and never being let back in on as good terms as we have now.

If we leave, I think this will happen:
the pound will sink like a stone. This may increase import sales figures, but presumably hit export sales and screw up pension pots as far as I know. Income from the economic sector will take a big hit.
less people willing to do the crap jobs, paying tax on doing so and producing stuff to sell, will be available. Too many British too snobbish to do the jobs (or can't afford to on the wages paid if somewhere like London).
when the economy fails, there's less safety backup(when PFI unravels, schools and hospitals will be owned by the company who built them, and not the state).
An Osborne/Johnson/Gove-led majority setting laws without anyone to stop them.
House prices fall (a good thing).

All you're giving here, with all due respect and whilst it is very welcome, is speculative opinion not Facts. Fancy having another go?

 

[MillionMilesAway]

urban genie
Don't think you can entirely blame the Conservatives for privatisation, as Blair's government were keen on it too.

But I agree with those points. I can only see funding coming from central government (who currently want to privatise everything!) and they can only do that by raising taxes (IMO). As Osborne nearly said, "you're all in this together"

 

[SWP's back]

At a guess:
we won't join the euro
we will be involved in any bailout.
New joiners - not really sure, there'll be some cost but some benefit too.
Trade - obviously
For the most part we do control our laws. A safety catch is removed from a lunatic government.
Immigration - very probably, with unclear effects
Peanuts (IMO). I have never really considered this significant (whatever the figure quoted is) as it is very difficult to put a pricetag on it.
Grumbling on the fringes but inside is better than railing from the outside and never being let back in on as good terms as we have now.

If we leave, I think this will happen:
the pound will sink like a stone. This may increase import sales figures, but presumably hit export sales and screw up pension pots as far as I know. Income from the economic sector will take a big hit.
less people willing to do the crap jobs, paying tax on doing so and producing stuff to sell, will be available. Too many British too snobbish to do the jobs (or can't afford to on the wages paid if somewhere like London).
when the economy fails, there's less safety backup(when PFI unravels, schools and hospitals will be owned by the company who built them, and not the state).
An Osborne/Johnson/Gove-led majority setting laws without anyone to stop them.
House prices fall (a good thing).

You've git that wrong. The pound sinking like a stone hugely helps exports rather than hinders them. And seeing as tariffs are said to be between 2-9%, a ten percent drop in the pound would pay for itself (for exporters).

It also wouldn't screw up pension pots. If anything it would help pension pots as most diversify currencies and as such would mean that the euro and dollar holdings would equate to more pound sterling (which is what UK pension funds are denominated in).

 

[YPhrunts]

Either you've misunderstood what I meant, or I'm not making myself clear.

They can't, and I don't expect them to KNOW the future, although I'd expect any cabinet-level politician to have a fair idea what negotiations are going to produce. Apart from anything else, a Leave win still requires Parliament to create the new rules that will apply, and that ould be ages, especially if the Conservatives are split.

I do expect them to be able to say "if UK chooses Leave/Remain, then we believe that XYZ will occur." Even if it's just what might be considered the top 10 subjects, both sides should be able to produce more than "it'll improve" without any calculations to back a highlevel comment up.

Many of the TV debates descend into very focussed subjects. Everyone knows that Cameron and Osborne are serial liars, if Farage is on it'll get hung up on immigration, if Brois is on, he'll be amusing but bonkers. I'd like to see an economy debate between the two sides to prove that they've both thought about it.

ON a side-issue, I'd have been interested to see the poll at the top with an 'unsure' option in it, to see what happens. Since I first saw it, there's been a gap of about 100 consistently, but no indication of the third group who will likely decide things.

You're being brainwashed mate. Remain want leave to state their economic commitments in the future and leave do not have the mandate to do that. Only the present government chancellor has the power to do that but he hasn't has he. Why? because he is required to produce a budget without prior publicity so that tax dodges are avoided. Both sides are in effect stymied in what they can say.
This leaves other organisations an advantage to push their biased and self interested positions by scaremongering which is why this referendum is reduced to how much they can scare the opposite side.
Take as a crystal clear example the call today from University research departments that leaving Europe would damage their funding to do research. There is no answer to it is there. Brexit MP's can't turn round and promise that they would fill that funding gap if they won the referendum because they haven't got a mandate to do it or even say it. It would be the present government and whoever is chancellor that would have to implement any changes. That would then be down to Party interests and to manifesto commitments. There should be no other way to proceed in a transparent democracy. We don't have transparency while attached to a superior body that doesn't need to produce a manifesto at all as it has no opposition. Financial decisions are just 'arrived at'. We give them our money and they tell us where to spend it.
See Bill Cashes statement a few posts above. Brussels won't even tell you how many employees it has.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

All you're giving here, with all due respect and whilst it is very welcome, is speculative opinion not Facts. Fancy having another go?

No, I don't. I am not a politician, it is not my job to make the case. I used the words 'guess' and 'think' deliberately.

What I would say is that reducing anything to bullet points serves only to strip context from them. I believe that this also removes some of the value from the point (e,g if 10 bn was 50% of the spending, it's huge; if it's 5%, it's significantly less huge)

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Absolute bollox. If you want to debate then debate but making up a pack of lies is a bit sad. Get back to project immigration and I will stick up for workers rights!

 

[MillionMilesAway]

You've git that wrong. The pound sinking like a stone hugely helps exports rather than hinders them. And seeing as tariffs are said to be between 2-9%, a ten percent drop in the pound would pay for itself (for exporters).

Got it the wrong way round, did I? I'm not sure it's that simple.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

[
i courses, so that relevant qualifications could be gained.

My Mrs applied, and was even coached/helped by one of the local Sure-Start managers for the application, and was considered by most to be a shoe-in for one of the positions.

So it kinda come as a shock to a lot of people when she wasn't successful and didn't get a position. And the main reason why she wasn't successful?
She couldn't speak 2 languages. The school came under Oldham's control and it seemed they had a policy where they looked more favourably at applicants that could speak more than just English (especially Urdu, Punjabi, Bangladeshi etc). 4 woman of Asian decent therefore got the positions.

Probably the saddest part was that not long after, one of them went on long term sick and another quit, and just over 12 months later things went pear shaped, and the groups etc all closed. And afaik the supposed 'community room' now just sits there not being used except as a school store room.

So i've never had any real issues about controlled immigration, but have seen first hand how uncontrolled immigration & the extra requirement it produces can have a detriment to native english people.

Absolute bollox. If you want to debate then debate but making up a pack of lies is a bit sad. Get back to project immigration and I will stick up for workers rights![/QUOTE]

I have no idea who you are talking to. Was that to me or the flip flop guy?