EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%

  • Total voters
    1,050
Status
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Thanks for commenting on what he said mate...I saw his name on the list posted but hadnt seen his report....I think many in the financial sector are less likely to take "risk" as they see the impact uncertainty causes on the economy...cheers

I can't say I've done any extensive research into the financial sector but I had a gander at Hargreaves Lansdown's website this morning. My SIPP is invested in various funds on their platform and I thought I'd have a look to see what they're saying. There was a comprehensive article by Neil Woodford who is one of the most successful fund managers in the UK and I have a sizeable chunk of my SIPP invested in one of his funds. His stance on Brexit is pretty much neutral - while he expects there to be a negative impact in the financial markets in the wake of a Brexit, he feels there are many other more significant factors worldwide that are equally, if not more, likely to affect share prices, etc, and he's confident that the value of his own funds will hold up in the long-term regardless of which way the vote goes. Note I said long-term - if someone is sitting on a pension fund, is just a few years away from retirement age, and we vote to leave, then their pot may not have time to recover fully when it comes down to them getting their hands on it so even though I'm far from an expert it would probably be better for such a person in that situation to vote to stay in. I'm still at least 9 years away from being able to access my pension fund currently and the 55 year old rule could change where I have to wait even longer so I'm voting out as the biggest single issue for me is the affect on my pension. Other things like job security I doubt are seriously impacted by whether we stay in or get out.
 
Good read for those who haven't a clue what to do.. i'm still out...



http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-referendum-reasons-why-a-brexit-is-a-good-idea-2016-6

I am starting to think a Brexit is a good idea, and I never thought I would ever say that
lapoeme-leave.jpg
Musee des Beaux-Arts (Lyon, France)

For the first time, in my view, the arguments for Britain breaking ties with Brussels are looking more appealing.

Britain will decide whether the UK stays in the European Union on June 23, and I am still on the fence about what to do.

Ignoring the political posturing from both sides of the argument in various TV debates and knuckling down to the core arguments that each side presents, there are some are good reasons for a British exit from the EU, known as a Brexit.

A Brexit was not something I had ever thought was a good idea, either financially or politically.



The International Monetary Fund cut forecasts for the UK's gross-domestic-product growth in 2016 and haswarned of severe implications for the UK economy should there be a Brexit.A top official at the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development also said the effects of Britain leaving the EU would be akin to a "tax" on British citizens.

A report from the London School of Economics added that British households could lose out on as much as £173 billion ($246 billion) a year in the worst case scenario following a Brexit.

But the 28-nation members are in it together, working under a single market ideal, in which policies and laws are enacted for the good of all countries and do not give a distinct advantage to one more than any other another. Right?

Well, I am not so sure anymore.

Seeing how the markets and politicians have dealt with the eurozone sovereign-debt crisis, the worst refugee problem since World War II, and constant squabbles over EU lawmaking that wrecks national sovereignty, I have become fully unstuck from the mud of the pro-EU camp and will sit on the fence until we vote.

The EU referendum is not the same as the Scottish referendum
britains-prime-minister-david-cameron-gestures-as-he-delivers-a-speech-at-the-aberdeen-exhibition-and-conference-centre-in-aberdeen-scotland-september-15-2014-cameron-appealed-to-scots-emotions-on-his-last-visit-to-scotland-before-this-weeks-historic-referendum-by-warning-them-on-monday-that-a-vote-to-leave-the-united-kingdom-would-be-irreversible-the-referendum-on-scottish-independence-will-take-place-on-september-18-when-scotland-will-vote-whether-or-not-to-end-the-307-year-old-union-with-the-rest-of-the-united-kingdom.jpg
British Prime Minister David Cameron.REUTERS/Dylan Martinez

Naturally people will ask why I believe that Britain should potentially leave the EU but still believe Scotland should be part of the UK.



Mainly, as with most of my arguments, it is the economics - cold, hard numbers. Scotland had a much better case decades ago for breaking off from the rest of the UK without cutting off its nose to spite its face.

Scotland massively depends on oil for revenue, and in the 1980s it would have probably been able to argue that the country's economy was strong enough to sustain jobs and its own balance sheet.

The landscape has changed, however, and the resource that the Scottish National Party highlighted as a jewel in the country's crown does not shine anymore. The North Sea oil industry is in dire straits. OPEC statistics show that average oil output in 2013 from the North Sea clocked its lowest level since 1977, and prices have plunged.

If Scotland had left the UK in 2014 when the referendum was conducted, then its economy would have been killed off. Oil prices have crumbled from $105 a barrel in the summer of 2014 to about $48 a barrel right now.

Scotland depends on the rest of the UK for its pensions and its welfare and for jobs. Leaving the UK would have been horrific.

Britain, however, is not in the same boat as Scotland, and we should not treat both referendums the same way. The political and economic situation is far more complex.



No single market
We are meant to be operating under the bloc's Single Market mechanism as an EU member.

The EU describes it as "one territory without any internal borders or other regulatory obstacles to the free movement of goods and services." It is basically meant to stimulate competition and trade, improve efficiency, and help cut prices.

We are meant to operate as one. Basically, it works only if all countries are identical and work as a hive, like the Borg in "Star Trek." That sounds like a utopian ideal, and it has not worked at all.

Take a look at the complete schism between the economic growth of the UK, Germany, and the rest of the eurozone.

baml-note-eu.jpg
BAML

Britain's performance has more in common with the economic recovery in the US than the eurozone. It does not really look as if we need the EU. It needs us.

Britain is sitting pretty, regardless of your political lens. Unemployment is just 5.1%, which is pretty much as close to "full employment" as we can get. The EU's data agency Eurostat has this lower at 4.9%. Inflation is low, real wages are solid, and more people are able to get on the housing ladder. We are also one of the key financial centres in the world.



Now compare it with the unemployment rate in these countries and the rest of the eurozone as a whole:

eurozoneunemployment-rates1.jpg
Unemployment rates, seasonally adjusted, April 2016. UK numbers included are February figures.Eurostat

Does not really look like a Single Market, right? Certain countries are propping up Europe's economic figures, while others are still stagnant or practically in recession.

At the beginning of September, my colleague Oscar Williams-Grut pointed out that the so-called Single Market has a massive problem: Germany.

German manufacturing is a booming behemoth, while almost every other nation bar Greece is at some sort of low. Britain's manufacturing sector is not the same as it was back in the 1950s, and we now depend on a lot on imports and exports (I will come to this later).

Greece's rebalancing toward exports has been achieved simply by imports collapsing. All you need to do is take one look at that country and realise there is nothing about that nation that is rebounding.

But when it comes to helping out our manufacturing sector, Britain is also stuck. Take a look at the UK's steel industry.



Steel prices in Europe, the place Britain is most exposed to for prices, are ridiculously low, making it difficult for the UK to compete. On top of that, EU state aid rules prevent the government from helping out the nation's steel companies - EU law strictly prevents parliament from bailing out dying companies. That has led to the near collapse of Tata Steel's operations in the country and thousands of potential job losses.

So even if we wanted to help ourselves, we cannot.

At the mercy of Germany
angela-merkel.jpeg
REUTERS/Thomas Peter

Concerns over the Single Market being a whole load of poppycock are more relevant than ever, especially since the eurozone debt crisis of 2009.

First and foremost, even though we are meant to be part of one big unit, we have no fiscal union to address underperforming areas.

In Britain, for example, London may generate greater amounts of wealth than other parts of the country. If somewhere like Nottingham struggles, the money is redistributed to pay for welfare or prop up the local economy. Infrastructure, like new railway lines, could be installed to link cities and create greater connection for people working or looking to expand business.

In the EU, we don't have this. Just look at Greece and the sorry mess it is in. Sure, we lend money and force the country to gut itself, but a loan is not a redistribution of wealth. Countries that need to devalue their currency to spur exports cannot. The bloc is not a "single" anything.



The EU is not doing as well as it used to, and it is skewed economic reporting that suggests the eurozone is doing great. As demonstrated before, Germany is propping up manufacturing growth figures.

Take a look at how the EU really isn't as well positioned as it was when Britain entered the bloc in 1973:

change-or-go-1.jpg
Change or Go Report

The EU's economy is "shrinking relative to other countries across the globe," and its population is ageing. In 2020, the ratio of working-age people to pensioners in the EU will be 3-to-1, while in 2050 it will be 2-to-1. This is according to a Business for Britain report published in June, which had Mark Littlewood of the Institute of Economic Affairs, John Mills of JML, and fund manager Helena Morrissey of Newton on its editorial board.

They added that tax payments to the EU, the level of bureaucracy, and the changing population are all contributing to greater cost for the nation.

Destroying national sovereignty
a-demonstrator-wears.jpg
REUTERS/Yannis Behrakis

Relinquishing national sovereignty sounds a lot like right-wing hooey, but having a look at how the EU has operated in the worst of times has not resolved any of these concerns.

Sovereignty is meant to be when a state has the absolute power to govern itself; make, execute, and apply laws; and impose and collect taxes.



Of course, being part of a union means we should all technically share that burden and have a say in which laws are enacted, while also making sure others are not penalised to the advantage of other nations. It should not be all bad.

Take a look at Greece again. The country has teetered on the brink of collapse so many times that it might as well jump off the cliff. But it cannot, because it is stuck with loans it does not want that seem near impossible for it to pay back.

The one time it did show some semblance of sovereignty or power was at its referendum on the bailout. The public voted against the extremely harsh (and arguably necessary) conditions in exchange for emergency cash. And we all know how that turned out - an utterly pointless exercise.

All that happened is that Greece wound up owing its creditors so much that they used it against them in their next round of negotiations.

German finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said Yanis Varoufakis, theradical left-wing former Greek finance minister, "strains the solidarity of European partners" shortly before Varoufakis left the government.

As for what happened to Greece, the referendum did not make a difference, and it still had to go back to its creditors with its tail between its legs.



We get barely any say
There are a few things that Britons are getting really tired of and a growing mountain of examples to show how the UK does not really have much of a say in what happens within the bloc.

Ideally being part of the EU means we have a seat at the table - the ability to work through what needs to change and address concerns from the UK.

Since 2010, the EU has introduced more than 3,500 new laws affecting British business. Business for Britain highlighted in its report in June last year that the sheer volume of red tape that affects the UK costs billions.

"The British Chambers of Commerce has shown that the total cost of EU regulation is £7.6 billion per year," the report said. "Since the Lisbon Treaty came into force in December 2009, it has cost British businesses £12.2 billion (net) in extra regulation."

Furthermore, Britain doesn't really have as much of a say as I thought.
change-or-go-4.jpg
Business for Britain

"The Commission proposes new laws in the EU, but the UK's representation has declined dramatically and many officials are adamantly opposed to the sort of changes that the UK seeks," the report said.

"When the UK joined the EU in 1973, we had 20% of the votes. Today we only have 9.5% of the votes. British MEPs voted against 576 EU proposals between 2009 and 2014, but 485 still passed and became law."



Zero say over policies
As demonstrated, Britain's economy and society is unique. It does not fall into a hive mind of Europe. No country within the European Union does, which is why a Single Market doesn't actually exist.

At the moment, Britain is dragged into huge game-changing policies that we do not want.

For example, take a look at the financial transactions tax proposal. The FTT, more commonly known as the Robin Hood Tax, places a 0.05% tax on trades involving stocks, bonds, foreign currency, and derivatives.

The European Commission originally aimed to launch the FTT in January with slightly different tax calculations -0.1% on shares and 0.01% on bond transactions in which at least one of the parties was based in the EU. Talks have stalled and remain ongoing.





The Conservative government, the financial sector, and various business groups are heavily against the FTT. The Tory-led government hates the tax proposition so much that UK Chancellor George Osborne even launched a legal suit against the FTT plan.

Basically, even if Britain doesn't sign up for it, the UK would be still financially penalised if it does business with other countries that sign up for FTT.



Now, I am still not fully up for Britain leaving the European Union - there are still a huge number of advantages of staying in. But the argument for leaving is not looking as scary as I first thought.

We are a nation that depends on imports for energy and goods, and in being part of the EU we have a decent mechanism for trade. Severing links could easily make it more expensive to import or ship goods.

But while a Brexit would be unknown territory, it would not necessarily be all bad in the long run.
 
£100 billion wiped off Britains wealth in 4 days on Brexit fears. 4 days and it's wiped out thirteen years of savings that we will make.
 
The UK is less than 10% urban. It just feels more when you live in an urban area. Scotland is less than 2%.

There is room, there is just no desire or money!

But the problem is that migration gets concentrated into already densely populated areas. Then local services are stretched to breaking point, while green belt and a fast diminishing countryside are placed under increasing threat.

I don't have numbers but just mentally compare the number of cars per mile of road in, say, the Scottish Highlands versus the Home Counties or Greater Manchester.

For me personally - and I may be In a small minority - quality of the environment is possibly the biggest issue of all and the most important to get right for future generations.
 
£100 billion wiped off Britains wealth in 4 days on Brexit fears. 4 days and it's wiped out thirteen years of savings that we will make.
We have been through this, move on, markets fluctuate regardless of the in out vote..! Change the record... Next week the country will vote to leave despite the bullshit pedalled by the remain campaign, the markets will probably suffer an adjustment and then they will continue to rise, like they always do..!!!!
 
Oh, shut up you tart - it's common knowledge that the stock market is ridiculously fickle. It''ll bounce back just as it always has done.
That doesn't follow markets often never recover - look at Japan for example - even the ftse 100 is where it was a decade ago - always goes up is an economic fantasy
 
We have been through this, move on, markets fluctuate regardless of the in out vote..! Change the record... Next week the country will vote to leave despite the bullshit pedalled by the remain campaign, the markets will probably suffer an adjustment and then they will continue to rise, like they always do..!!!!
That's what you like to believe guns don't kill and Brexit can do no economic wrong
 
But the problem is that migration gets concentrated into already densely populated areas. Then local services are stretched to breaking point, while green belt and a fast diminishing countryside are placed under increasing threat.

I don't have numbers but just mentally compare the number of cars per mile of road in, say, the Scottish Highlands versus the Home Counties or Greater Manchester.

For me personally - and I may be In a small minority - quality of the environment is possibly the biggest issue of all and the most important to get right for future generations.

Maybe I'm just fortunate. I don't feel it much where I live and that's a town. I can see why some people feel over run though if they are affected.
 
£100 billion wiped off Britains wealth in 4 days on Brexit fears. 4 days and it's wiped out thirteen years of savings that we will make.

For clarity, where did you get this figure from and what exactly do you(or the source) define as 'Britains wealth'?
 
That doesn't follow markets often never recover - look at Japan for example

I can't work out who is the biggest scaremongerer - you or George Osborne. If you think the market will take as big or bigger a hit than it did in the wake of 9/11 and the economic crash in 2008 then you're seriously deluded. I've posted above the thoughts of a fund manager that is a far bigger expert than you'll ever be and I'm more inclined to take his word for it thanks very much.
 
If Osbournes prediction this morning is so true, why the fuck has he decided to leave it until the last minute to tell us? Surely he knew when Cameron announced there would be a referendum what effect it may have on the country and should have drawn up plans then to sort any deficit out.

It's all bollocks, this fucker hasn't got a single thing right since he became C.O.E. and should have been sacked from his post along time ago, the farce around benefit cuts in his last budget which was overturned should have seen to that.

More scare mongering and why they haven't realised it's pushing the undecided voter towards out i can't quite fathom out.
The lies intended to instill fear didn't work, so outcome the threats... It's all garbage.
 
We have been through this, move on, markets fluctuate regardless of the in out vote..! Change the record... Next week the country will vote to leave despite the bullshit pedalled by the remain campaign, the markets will probably suffer an adjustment and then they will continue to rise, like they always do..!!!!

Exactly. There are hundreds of things that can affect the global stock markets. But in Ealing's little world, you'd have thought that Brexit would be the only factor ffs!
 
The markets fluctuate much like our climate changes.

Dont fall for the politics of fear!
 
I can't work out who is the biggest scaremongerer - you or George Osborne. If you think the market will take as big or bigger a hit than it did in the wake of 9/11 and the economic crash in 2008 then you're seriously deluded. I've posted above the thoughts of a fund manager that is a far bigger expert than you'll ever be and I'm more inclined to take his word for it thanks very much.
Makes you wonder why the majority of clients of the large spread betting firms are long the ftse 100
 
I can't work out who is the biggest scaremongerer - you or George Osborne. If you think the market will take as big or bigger a hit than it did in the wake of 9/11 and the economic crash in 2008 then you're seriously deluded. I've posted above the thoughts of a fund manager that is a far bigger expert than you'll ever be and I'm more inclined to take his word for it thanks very much.
We shall see , I suspect the consequences will be more serious than 911 , if things got close to 2008 then there is no world economy as there is nothing left to deal with a situation like 2008, no money, no fiscal stimulus, no interest rates etc

As for fund managers someone is selling off big time on the concerns and I hope you are right, but as some fund managers were still saying ALl is ok weeks before Bear Stearns I would be taking many views and being as sceptical of any of them as the politicians or anyone else.

As for scare tactics, I reported facts, history , events of the last week don't need to predict
 
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We shall see , I suspect the consequences will be more serious than 911 , if things got close to 2008 then there is no world economy as there is nothing left to deal with a situation like 2008, no money, no fiscal stimulus, no interest rates etc

As for fund managers someone is selling off big time on the concerns and I hope you are right but as some fund managers were still saying AOLK weeks before Bear Stearns I would be taking many views and being as sceptical of any of them as the politicians or anyone else.

As for scare tactics, I reported facts, history , events of the last week don't need to predict

Ok Mr Osbourne, the game is up, you have been rumbled.. Now bugger off back to number 11 and pack your bags...!!!!
 
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