Defence conundrum

You simply have to be able to win some games 1-0, especially against title rivals.
Our defensive players and goalie are not good enough. The only 2 who are worth keeping are getting to the end of their career (Sagna) or can't manage more than a few games a season (Kompany). The next two maybe 3 transfer windows should be solely focussed on getting the right type of defender for the way Pep wants to play
 
Are any of our defenders actually capable?

Zab - no more
Sagna - yes
Maffeo - unsure
Kompany - can't
Stones - unsure
Otamendi - NO
Kolarov - no
Clichy - no

Tosin will be getting his chance this month, probably against Celtic. The bar has been set pretty low so maybe a good time to bring him in?
 
bellsouth said:
You simply have to be able to win some games 1-0, especially against title rivals.
Our defensive players and goalie are not good enough. The only 2 who are worth keeping are getting to the end of their career (Sagna) or can't manage more than a few games a season (Kompany). The next two maybe 3 transfer windows should be solely focussed on getting the right type of defender for the way Pep wants to play
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I think it has been the focus, we have just bought badly. Really badly.
 
Back 3 or back 4 doesn't bother me either can work at certain times. But if either include Otamendi we are doomed. I can see a case for Kolarov at the minute. Even yesterday the way he can bring the ball forward and pick decent passes in forward positions when even the likes of Chelsea retreat to their own area. I can't believe some of the grief Stones gets. As a kid finding his feet playing at a better level than he has before I think he has shown me enough to believe he is and will be a top player for us. Sagna has to play when fit either as a full back or centre back I don't care but he is currently our best defender. The keeper is a shocker.

But Pep needs to settle things down at the back and stop changing formations and personnel. And his substitutions yesterday were puzzling to say the least.
 
OB1 said:
The problem with Ota is that he does do plenty of good work but still makes too many costly errors: he needs to play with more composure but can Pep teach that?
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The real issue IMO is that we are far too attack heavy.

Otamendi is instructed to win the ball high up the pitch because quite often the likes of KDB and Silva don't track the runners.

There have been a number of examples when Stones or Otamendi has held up the attacker only for them to turn and pass to a player rushing through.

The only consistent shape that I can see in our side is that the wingers stay wide and the keeper is always open for a pass. Aside from that it's almost like a free for all. KDB, Gundogan, Silva and Kun do as they please and the defence gets exposed when we are not in possession.
 
3 at the back sucks the way Pepe wants us to play defensively.

Look at Chelsea's 3 at the back, 2 goals conceded in 8 games--> 8 wins as well.

They are not scared to play Matic+Kante duo usually front of 3 man def., and that is a pretty defensive midfield duo imo especially compared to Fernandinho-Gundogan duo. And then they have Alonso as a wingback/winger role who is a fullback originally, while we have Sane who is an att. midfielder/winger. (Other side with Moses/Navas bit closer in terms of style.)

So the balance of Chelsea's team much better between attack/defence and in PL a good balanced team is at least half of the reason of any success.

Also the high line of defence costing us, simply our players not working hard enough when we lose the ball, all this talk of changing personnel in defence and then midfielders attackers not fighting 110% but let opponents run at our defenders you would see Boateng, Bonucci, Laporte become not "good enough, needs to be replaced" category very soon...

The reason we really have to change fullbacks as they are old/slow and not good defensively anyway anymore, Kolarov cant defend well but has skills to support attacks, Sagna/Clichy rarely can support attacks but they are good in a limited defensive role but we need much more from a fullback not only a solid defensive performance every second game. While Zabba is nowhere near where he was 4-5 years ago quite clearly.
But this isnt something we didnt know about them before Pep arrived and all summer we didnt sign one fullback or we wont even in January probably.

The crucial problem we arent playing to our strengths with this new style Pep wants to create here, and we still have to learn a lot about it to perform it perfectly week in week out.

Conte needed few weeks to get to know his squad just like Pep, but the Italian came up with a plan that is playing to the strengths of his squad (quick players on wing and at the back, a good target man in Costa) so this 343 is a great way for them to play and also it gives them nice balance.

Looks to easy for them, but look at Leicester last season they found their pretty basic game with Ranieri after first few months and after that it was down to playing to their strengths, keep up their mentality, hunger, desire, belief.

If Conte wins it thats a big thing for Italians, Ancelotti, Mancini, Ranieri, Conte.

For us its gonna be a long season adapt to a strategy that we couldnt really adapt under Pellegrini (to a similar one at least) either in 3 years after numerous signings.

Have a feeling it only will work perfectly in PL if we will have Messi, Bonucci, Busquets, Neuer, Kroos, and two top class fullbacks at least on the team on top of what we already have.
 
Our best back four imo:

Sagna - Stones - Ota - Clichy

Defensively Clichy is much superior to Kolarov, although is slightly lacking physically.
Sagna without doubt our most reliable defender, if only he was five years younger.

Worried though that due to our lack of business in defence this season, we are going to be left needing to replace possibly four, maybe even five defenders next season, which means several new players will need time to settle. Meaning that for different reasons we could find ourselves having the same problems this time next season.
 
We've all been saying for nearly four years now that we need a full back on either side who are quick, good going forward, good defenders and in their prime (24-29 years old). Coming up to seven Transfer Windows in a row and we're still all saying the same thing. I'm not holding my breath on it. It feels like we'll still be saying when Zaba's got a walking stick and Kolarov is drawing his pension but both still playing for us.

Our recruitment of centre halves has been absolutely terrible!

Since Dunne and Onuoha shipped 8 in at Boro and we got taken over that Summer we've seen:
Ben Haim
Kolo
Lescott
Boateng
Boyata
Savic
Nastasic
Rekik
Demichelis
Mangala
Otamendi
Stones

And all but Lescott and half a season from Demichelis were poor signings (a bit early to tell with Stones but his last three games he's been awful!) Nobe of the others have turned out to be good signings.

There is Kompany too but he was signed as a midfielder and it was Mancini who turned him into a centre half.

We've got it seriously wrong at centre half. Numerous people (bar Mancini) haven't had a fucking clue what they were doing in this area at this club and it's unacceptable!

Stones and Otamendi were so unbelievably shit yesterday they don't deserve to play in this team for a while. I'd rather see Tosin and Sagna for the rest of the month than those two.
 
Even against the best defense in the world teams will get some chances, yesterday Chelsea were restricted to four and our "Keeper" let in three, I have seem f*cking balloons go down quicker for two of them while he managed to dive over the third because it was hit with all the venom an average three year old could muster, this bloke does not even rate the average shit award, he`s a f*cking liability an no wonder the defense looks nervous with him as a last resort.
 
We need a massive rebuild at the back. The only senior defender with any business near that starting 11 is Stones and he still has work to do.

Think we are going to need to deal with plenty more weak as piss dogshit defending this season tho as the players we will want will either not be available, or not ready to stepup from the EDS.
 
Our worst performance of the season was against Spurs when we played a back four.
Most teams with a back four allow their fullbacks to push forward at times leaving them every bit as exposed to the counter.
Classically back threes are exposed by wing play which we were not yesterday.
I am not denying that we have defensive problems but I don't think the formation has been the problem.I suspect it is more the swapping of personnel and to a certain extent the fact that none of them are individually outstanding in the way that Vinnie and Zab were at their best.
 
Ironic -given that all four of our full backs are aged 31+ and none have the combination of pace and passing ability needed - to see how Milner is flourishing at age 30 as a left sided defender. I think he would have flourished under Pep. Ha! just given away a penalty, but he has the stamina and passing that would have been such an upgrade on the fraud that is Kolarov. Stones will be fine, he's 22 and the rebuild should be around him. He is struggling to settle as any player would with Otamendi "diving in at every opportunity" and the aforementioned Serbian hard man alongside him. To be quite honest I would even pick Simon Francis ahead of Kolarov and that is telling! I don't know if the plan was to play Vinny alongside Stones to help him bed in but now that Vinny is more or less crocked a replacement who can lead a backline should be first order of business next month. Pep must already have this done for Jan 2nd.
 
Would have hoped Pep would see the players strengths and weaknesses and plan accordingly. I thought he was a football genius like that.

However he has his system and is shoehorning in players that don't fit it.

It's costing us and will continue to cost us (also as long as our attackers seemingly think it's ok to miss so many chances.)
 
Maybe I'm seeing things through blue tinted specs, but are our defenders really that bad?

When we set up to defend in an organised way, we seem to do OK. The 2nd half of the league game at the swamp for example, where we knew a 2-1 win would do. We kept it tight for the remaining 20 minutes and looked pretty solid.

Seems to me that we CAN defend pretty well when we chose to, it's just that we don't actually do it enough. We spend all our time up at the other end of the pitch getting far too stretched out and leaving ourselves wide open for the counter attack. Yes, we could do better in those circumstances, but really we are conceding goals where we shouldn't have even given the opposition a chance to attack, had we not been so cavalier at the other end. When you see Otamendi taking part in the attacking build up outside the opposition's penalty area, is it any surprise we keep getting punished by counter attacks?

Do we just need to be a bit less all_out_attack and play with a bit of caution, FFS?
 
daztrueblue91 said:
What Pep can do is adapt his system to try and minimise the shortcomings he has in certain players.

I don't for a second believe that Otamendi is anywhere near as bad as you suggest he is, however if he is so poor, then surely Pep needs to sort out a system where our CBs will not be exposed constantly.

I keep reading that Pep doesn't have the players he needs to play his system and that's understandable. He's been here a matter of months and has inherited a squad that is not good enough to play at the level he wants. However, what is unacceptable is forcing them players to play a system they struggle with. Pellegrini did that at times and got absolutely slated on here.

No City fan would want Pep to abandon his long term principles. We brought him in to get us to that level. Though it would be nice to see him adapt to get the best from this current team.
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The reason people can't do what Pep does, is not purely because he is so much better imo (which he is) but also because they all give in to pressure to do what you are saying.

Pep won't. He will of course adapt to the Premier League & evolve, but he will force his players to learn to play the way he KNOWS works. And that is the key. He doesn't think it works, he knows it.

And if Liverpool had our strikers from yesterday, they would be losing 3-0 to Bournmouth right now. Because they, like us, have defenders who are shit.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Maybe I'm seeing things through blue tinted specs, but are our defenders really that bad?

When we set up to defend in an organised way, we seem to do OK. The 2nd half of the league game at the swamp for example, where we knew a 2-1 win would do. We kept it tight for the remaining 20 minutes and looked pretty solid.

Seems to me that we CAN defend pretty well when we chose to, it's just that we don't actually do it enough. We spend all our time up at the other end of the pitch getting far too stretched out and leaving ourselves wide open for the counter attack. Yes, we could do better in those circumstances, but really we are conceding goals where we shouldn't have even given the opposition a chance to attack, had we not been so cavalier at the other end. When you see Otamendi taking part in the attacking build up outside the opposition's penalty area, is it any surprise we keep getting punished by counter attacks?

Do we just need to be a bit less all_out_attack and play with a bit of caution, FFS?
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When they had to defend, like last week at Burnley, they seem able to do the traditional defensive stuff. They struggle when they're not in the game. They all get involved, often for the sake of it, and seem to forget the basics. Goes a little way to explaining the difference between home and away form currently.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Maybe I'm seeing things through blue tinted specs, but are our defenders really that bad?

When we set up to defend in an organised way, we seem to do OK. The 2nd half of the league game at the swamp for example, where we knew a 2-1 win would do. We kept it tight for the remaining 20 minutes and looked pretty solid.

Seems to me that we CAN defend pretty well when we chose to, it's just that we don't actually do it enough. We spend all our time up at the other end of the pitch getting far too stretched out and leaving ourselves wide open for the counter attack. Yes, we could do better in those circumstances, but really we are conceding goals where we shouldn't have even given the opposition a chance to attack, had we not been so cavalier at the other end. When you see Otamendi taking part in the attacking build up outside the opposition's penalty area, is it any surprise we keep getting punished by counter attacks?

Do we just need to be a bit less all_out_attack and play with a bit of caution, FFS?
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Because we brought Pep in, to be Pep.

If he spends this season patching up holes rather than making the team play like Pep, we won't wn anything anyway, because that's not what he is good at.

So then we start next season, from the same position we started this one.
 
The Light Was Yellow Sir said:
When they had to defend, like last week at Burnley, they seem able to do the traditional defensive stuff. They struggle when they're not in the game. They all get involved, often for the sake of it, and seem to forget the basics. Goes a little way to explaining the difference between home and away form currently.
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Burnley had a guilt egded chance to make it two each last week.

They didn't have Costa or Hazard.
 
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