Defence conundrum

[Gorton_Tubster]

I am convinced we dont have a massive problem with our defence except that under pressure they are like any other defence and concede and make mistakes.

Chelsea defence were a mess against us, much worse than ours when they were under pressure. The only difference was they took their chances and we didnt. Had we gone 2-0 up we win, and no one moans about our defence.

That game for me was like the first Barca game, so I am not that worried, we out performed them, we had them panicking, we created so so many chances, we were easily containing them at times. We just couldnt score that 2nd goal.

Nice to see the passion at the end too, these players need to care that much, I hope they take those memories into the next game against Chelsea

 

[trevorriley]

Tactically we are playing the wrong game for the back four we have ( bollocks to the 3-4-3 or 4-3-4 talk, you dont see this formation when for example chelsea break forward and pull us apart ). Our two defenders and left/ right back are not tactically aware of the press forward game we play, our last 4 home games have seen goals galore go in with pressing forward and defence on the half way line running back against forwards who are quick and can finish well.

The current line of back four is not up to scratch for this pressing tactic, we are leaving gaps all over. If we had a solid experienced defender ( eg another kompany ) who could direct either otamendi or stones that would sot this position out. Then we need total new left / right back. Until then we are going to keep leaking goals in from teams who have four shots and score with two.

 

[OB1]

Tactically we are playing the wrong game for the back four we have ( bollocks to the 3-4-3 or 4-3-4 talk, you dont see this formation when for example chelsea break forward and pull us apart ). Our two defenders and left/ right back are not tactically aware of the press forward game we play, our last 4 home games have seen goals galore go in with pressing forward and defence on the half way line running back against forwards who are quick and can finish well.

The current line of back four is not up to scratch for this pressing tactic, we are leaving gaps all over. If we had a solid experienced defender ( eg another kompany ) who could direct either otamendi or stones that would sot this position out. Then we need total new left / right back. Until then we are going to keep leaking goals in from teams who have four shots and score with two.

4-3-4, that's a new one on me; I'm sure it's a clever reference to having a sweeper keeper.

 

[Father Paul]

Clichy, Kolorov, Otamendi and possibly Zabaleta are not up to it now.

So that's four out of six players that we can't rely on.

Throw in a young Stones who looks a bit weak at times and a keeper who has yet to convince and it doesn't take Einstein to work out we have problems.

Why this wasn't addressed in the summer god only knows. It's too late for this season. There will not be anything decent available in Jan unless we can find a loan signing from somewhere.

It will have to be summer and it will probably be another season then until they are all bedded in.

Fortunately our start has kept us in it but that could well change by the end of Dec if this isn't sorted out quickly.
Pep needs to find a solution quickly.

I think he has to be more pragmatic and put winning points ahead of imposing the Pep way of playing until the defence can be sorted out. We are in a similar situation to a couple of seasons back when we lost all our attackers for the month of December. We had to grind out results with six in midfield. In January we are unlikely to be able to get much quality in the market although I would be looking for the odd loan deal to fill a gap or two.

 

[Bluearmy]

I am convinced we dont have a massive problem with our defence except that under pressure they are like any other defence and concede and make mistakes.

Chelsea defence were a mess against us, much worse than ours when they were under pressure. The only difference was they took their chances and we didnt. Had we gone 2-0 up we win, and no one moans about our defence.

That game for me was like the first Barca game, so I am not that worried, we out performed them, we had them panicking, we created so so many chances, we were easily containing them at times. We just couldnt score that 2nd goal.

Nice to see the passion at the end too, these players need to care that much, I hope they take those memories into the next game against Chelsea

I'm the opposite.... we concede far too many goals for the number of chances we give up to the opposition and think we have massive problems... it's a worrying trend for me. We're also too small at centre half. There's an argument we need 4 defenders and a keeper still. We're a right mess!

 

[cibaman]

I'm the opposite.... we concede far too many goals for the number of chances we give up to the opposition and think we have massive problems... it's a worrying trend for me. We're also too small at centre half. There's an argument we need 4 defenders and a keeper still. We're a right mess!

Which makes the lack of urgency in the last 2 years to replace defenders all the more baffling.

 

[feedmpenzaandhewillscore]

Which makes the lack of urgency in the last 2 years to replace defenders all the more baffling.

We've replaced them but they've been mistakes, how have we got a centre half we payed 40 million for and he's on loan in Spain? Paid big money for Ottemendi and hes giving time to Costa to take a ball down and slot it past the keeper.

We've got a complete cart horse of a striker on loan at Stoke who looks like he's never played football in his life. We are top heavy with players who can play left or right of the striker but we haven't got anyone of any type of standing in football playing full back. If we don't win anything this year a certain director of football should be moved on and let someone else identity who will improve the team.

 

[BlueAnorak]

It gives me absolutely no pleasure to say that by biggest concern at the start of the season is hurting us every game.
If money was tight due to FFP then the defence had to be given priority to buy the best DM there is, two centre halves and two fullbacks. We bought a single raw centre half and changed the one thing at the back, Hart, that didn't need changing defensively.
We concede 1 goal in 3 attempts. 2 in 3 against running shoot attacks. The lack of Pace and Power at the back is frightening.
The league title is probably gone already - we will lose to Arsenal with that defence - and if the problem it isn't addressed we can say bye bye to a top 4 slot as well.

 

[Blue Til Death]

It gives me absolutely no pleasure to say that by biggest concern at the start of the season is hurting us every game.
If money was tight due to FFP then the defence had to be given priority to buy the best DM there is, two centre halves and two fullbacks. We bought a single raw centre half and changed the one thing at the back, Hart, that didn't need changing defensively.
We concede 1 goal in 3 attempts. 2 in 3 against running shoot attacks. The lack of Pace and Power at the back is frightening.
The league title is probably gone already - we will lose to Arsenal with that defence - and if the problem it isn't addressed we can say bye bye to a top 4 slot as well.

4 points of the top playing poorly, is hardly a time to throw the towel in mate, I agree we are struggling in defence at the moment and not firing on all cylinders in attack either, we will come good though and I am confident we will win the league this season, don't forget Jesus is coming and he will be the perfect foil for Sergio, who will also start firing soon.
Keep the faith mate, its hardly a fookin crisis at the moment is it..! I thought for large parts of the game on Saturday we were brilliant, Kev knocks the open goal in and its a completely different scenario..!

 

[Dubai Blue]

We've replaced them but they've been mistakes, how have we got a centre half we payed 40 million for and he's on loan in Spain? Paid big money for Ottemendi and hes giving time to Costa to take a ball down and slot it past the keeper.

We've got a complete cart horse of a striker on loan at Stoke who looks like he's never played football in his life. We are top heavy with players who can play left or right of the striker but we haven't got anyone of any type of standing in football playing full back. If we don't win anything this year a certain director of football should be moved on and let someone else identity who will improve the team.

Given that the current leadership regime was brought in primarily to pave the way for Pep Guardiola, it's astonishing how unprepared/unsuited the existing squad is for playing Pep's style of football. There are deficiencies all over the place, but particularly in defence; the same deficiencies that have been glaringly obvious over the last 2 seasons. If Pep sticks to just 3 years in charge, I fear we're already in danger of wasting a golden opportunity because a whole new defence isn't going to magically bed in overnight before the start of next season.

 

[BlueAnorak]

4 points of the top playing poorly, is hardly a time to throw the towel in mate, I agree we are struggling in defence at the moment and not firing on all cylinders in attack either, we will come good though and I am confident we will win the league this season, don't forget Jesus is coming and he will be the perfect foil for Sergio, who will also start firing soon.
Keep the faith mate, its hardly a fookin crisis at the moment is it..! I thought for large parts of the game on Saturday we were brilliant, Kev knocks the open goal in and its a completely different scenario..!

We were pretty good against Chelsea going forward but defensively we were a shambles from the off. The lack of goals is also a problem, but it's not what's killing us.

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

I'm the opposite.... we concede far too many goals for the number of chances we give up to the opposition and think we have massive problems... it's a worrying trend for me. We're also too small at centre half. There's an argument we need 4 defenders and a keeper still. We're a right mess!

Yet goals against is better than liverpool, on a par with Arsenal, they take their goal chances though.

Our defence are not that bad, they need replacing but I dont think it's true we cant win anything with them in the team. Or that we're a right mess... A team doesnt get to top of the prem with a mess of a defence.

Against Chelsea, if KDB had scored that goal we would have gone on and won and no one would be looking at our defence (LIke they didnt after the Baraca game despite us making mistakes) and instead people would have been looking at all of the amateurish mistakes the Chelsea defence made. and there were quite a few.

If our strikers take their chances then our defence have an easier game, they are sort of playing at 100% pressure for the whole game because our strikers are not currently able to put us two goals clear of the opposition to take the strain off.

 

[Busmo Funbag]

A hell of a team, full of leaders and tacklers who didnt fuck about.

Tevez, De Jong, Barry, Zabba, Vinny, Jolean and Hart, imposing hard tacking fuckers throughout the team.

This current crop are not a patch on that lot.

Kev cant tackle bless, Gundogan fucking terrible at it, Ditto Sterling and neither can Clichy or Kolorov-and they are fucking defenders.

Gundogan looks lightweight for this league playing alongside Fern, Silva does a far far superior job partnering Fern, we didn't look anywhere near as vulnerable in midfield when Gundogan wasn't fit.

Gundogan will work if we have top drawer defenders and fullbacks behind him-who can at least give him the freedom and safety net behind him to fucking tackle and defend.

Fernandinho will be fucked come February at this rate-a blessing in disguise in some ways that he got a red card at the weekend, at least he can re charge is batteries for the New Year games.

The fact is that whatever the rights and wrongs of it, we are trying to do something very different now. At that point it was all about winning. For me that team had a nice balance of defence and attack and was a team that had power, aggression and technical ability. We could win matches in all sorts of ways which is important if you're going to win the Prem. Personally that is what I want to see in a football team. I can see beauty in lots of facets of the game and balanced football which includes great, strong defending has its own beauty. Since Txiki and Soriano have come in they are striving for what they see as beautiful football and it just happens to be something different. I don't want this to come across as a criticism of them or their vision, beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all and it is fine that they see the kind of all out attacking football that Barca delivered under their watch as THE beautiful way of playing the game. And let's face it, if/when Pep delivers a genuine winning team that has a huge emphasis on attack then none of us will be complaining, it will be incredible. But I do worry that ultimately if the emphasis is too much on attack then it ends up often being too high a risk for not enough of a reward and I'm still not convinced that titles can be won consistently if defending is viewed in some way as not being as important as attacking. The current squad has technical ability everywhere but it could do with lots more height and strength. But I doubt when we next go in the market we will be prioritising players with those two assets, we will be looking for more players with technical ability.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Tactically we are playing the wrong game for the back four we have ( bollocks to the 3-4-3 or 4-3-4 talk, you dont see this formation when for example chelsea break forward and pull us apart ). Our two defenders and left/ right back are not tactically aware of the press forward game we play, our last 4 home games have seen goals galore go in with pressing forward and defence on the half way line running back against forwards who are quick and can finish well.

The current line of back four is not up to scratch for this pressing tactic, we are leaving gaps all over. If we had a solid experienced defender ( eg another kompany ) who could direct either otamendi or stones that would sot this position out. Then we need total new left / right back. Until then we are going to keep leaking goals in from teams who have four shots and score with two.

Pretty much agree with this. I would also say that when we lose posession our midfield don't pick up the one or two runners in the opposition and this is the start of the problems that trevorriley states above.

 

[flb]

The fact is that whatever the rights and wrongs of it, we are trying to do something very different now. At that point it was all about winning. For me that team had a nice balance of defence and attack and was a team that had power, aggression and technical ability. We could win matches in all sorts of ways which is important if you're going to win the Prem. Personally that is what I want to see in a football team. I can see beauty in lots of facets of the game and balanced football which includes great, strong defending has its own beauty. Since Txiki and Soriano have come in they are striving for what they see as beautiful football and it just happens to be something different. I don't want this to come across as a criticism of them or their vision, beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all and it is fine that they see the kind of all out attacking football that Barca delivered under their watch as THE beautiful way of playing the game. And let's face it, if/when Pep delivers a genuine winning team that has a huge emphasis on attack then none of us will be complaining, it will be incredible. But I do worry that ultimately if the emphasis is too much on attack then it ends up often being too high a risk for not enough of a reward and I'm still not convinced that titles can be won consistently if defending is viewed in some way as not being as important as attacking. The current squad has technical ability everywhere but it could do with lots more height and strength. But I doubt when we next go in the market we will be prioritising players with those two assets, we will be looking for more players with technical ability.

Totally agree mate, defending is as important as attacking, if your strikers are having an off day then better a draw than a loss, pretty sure Pep will see this for himself though-this league is unique.

 

[Bluearmy]

It gives me absolutely no pleasure to say that by biggest concern at the start of the season is hurting us every game.
If money was tight due to FFP then the defence had to be given priority to buy the best DM there is, two centre halves and two fullbacks. We bought a single raw centre half and changed the one thing at the back, Hart, that didn't need changing defensively.
We concede 1 goal in 3 attempts. 2 in 3 against running shoot attacks. The lack of Pace and Power at the back is frightening.
The league title is probably gone already - we will lose to Arsenal with that defence - and if the problem it isn't addressed we can say bye bye to a top 4 slot as well.

Can't disagree with lots of the above. Wouldn't quite throw the towel in on the title just yet, but things have got to change quickly at the back and if I'm honest I can't see it either. Txixi done some good, but looks like defence is not his strong area. Stones wasn't what we needed at the time, otamendi is just not big enough in this league to play the commanding centre half. Full backs all too old at the same time.

 

[Bluearmy]

Yet goals against is better than liverpool, on a par with Arsenal, they take their goal chances though.

Our defence are not that bad, they need replacing but I dont think it's true we cant win anything with them in the team. Or that we're a right mess... A team doesnt get to top of the prem with a mess of a defence.

Against Chelsea, if KDB had scored that goal we would have gone on and won and no one would be looking at our defence (LIke they didnt after the Baraca game despite us making mistakes) and instead people would have been looking at all of the amateurish mistakes the Chelsea defence made. and there were quite a few.

If our strikers take their chances then our defence have an easier game, they are sort of playing at 100% pressure for the whole game because our strikers are not currently able to put us two goals clear of the opposition to take the strain off.

Liverpools numbers are skewed a little by a couple of bad games. Since mid Sept, we've had 1 clean sheet in 15 games. It's appalling for me watching it, never mind the statistics behind it and needs replacing as you say. Possibly 4 out of 5 Goalkeeper, 2 x full backs, and at least 1 centre half. Otta and stones cannot play together, just not big enough!

Now we are missing too many chances too, fair point but you'd like to think that won't go on forever.

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

Liverpools numbers are skewed a little by a couple of bad games. Since mid Sept, we've had 1 clean sheet in 15 games. It's appalling for me watching it, never mind the statistics behind it and needs replacing as you say. Possibly 4 out of 5 Goalkeeper, 2 x full backs, and at least 1 centre half. Otta and stones cannot play together, just not big enough!

Now we are missing too many chances too, fair point but you'd like to think that won't go on forever.

Nevermind the statistics? But that is fact, we have let in less than Liverpool. Whether it is skewed or not.

Ok, how about Arsenal, we have let in 1 goal more than them. Doesnt than mean our defence is approx as good as theirs?

What about the fact that this same defence played brilliant during the first few games of this season? Now they are shite?

Or that they more than matched Barca

I take your point about not going a whole game with out a clean sheet. We need to be better.

I am convinced our attack need to score the killer goals, and like Saturday (Where Chelsea Defence played attrocious but they took their chances) we would win more and moan less about what isnt a particularly bad problem when compared with the top four.

I think Pep said himself a couple of weeks ago when asked about this - defence starts with attack, if you dont take your chances it puts the defence under pressure.

 

[Bluearmy]

Nevermind the statistics? But that is fact, we have let in less than Liverpool. Whether it is skewed or not.

Ok, how about Arsenal, we have let in 1 goal more than them. Doesnt than mean our defence is approx as good as theirs?

What about the fact that this same defence played brilliant during the first few games of this season? Now they are shite?

Or that they more than matched Barca

I take your point about not going a whole game with out a clean sheet. We need to be better.

I am convinced our attack need to score the killer goals, and like Saturday (Where Chelsea Defence played attrocious but they took their chances) we would win more and moan less about what isnt a particularly bad problem when compared with the top four.

I think Pep said himself a couple of weeks ago when asked about this - defence starts with attack, if you dont take your chances it puts the defence under pressure.

Not looking to argue fella, but the pool have had 5 clean sheets in the same time frame. Your better having the odd nightmare (like they did at Bournemouth) than consistently not having clean sheets like us, for me. But it's a game of opinions. I actually think klopp has some of the same issues we have in defence for the record. Dodgy keeper/centre halfs issues.

As for Arsenal, out of the best staring back 5's of both clubs, I'd take their keeper, Bellerin, Koscielny, and probably Monreal when you compare our two left backs over our options. So yes, I would say they are better.

The defence did start ok. It happens. Like with The first month of the previous season. But as with last season, the shortcomings are there to see. Not big enough at centre half. No pace. Full backs past their peak. Average goalkeeper. Painful saying that but it's what I feel.

We are going to have games like the weekend (had a few recently) where we don't take the chances we should. It's imperative we keep clean sheets, but I just don't see it being achievable going forward. Hope I'm very wrong and we go on a run keeping clean sheets, time will tell....

 

[Rhapsody in Blue]

Someone put it really well. It's not that we concede many goals, it's that we concede goals in almost every game. Combine that with the struggles we have to score and there you go.

Find speed a little bit overrated, at least for CBs. BM players like Boateng, Alonso, Martinez are not the quickest, neither were Lescott, Barry or De Jong.

What has worried me a lot and still worries me is the way we concede the last couple of years however. It feels like the majority of goals are clear cut chances from either counter attacks or mistakes. How is it else possible to score 1/3 and 2/3 if the stats according to the previous poster is correct?

It probably started a long time before but since 0-1 against Stoke at home (forgotten the player, Senegalese I think) and West Ham at home (Moses, not quite clear cut, mistake by Hart) it seems to go on an on and on. What is done to prevent this and what is the cause?

Is the problem that our DMs are too high up the pitch, causing the likes of Hazard and Willian being able to run against our defence? It's also shocking that Bravo hasn't been able to save one of these shots but that's another story.

I'm very puzzled by the way we concede goals since Pellegrini's appointment, 2014 included.

I'm still positive that Pep will sort this out. BM didn't concede much under him but their fullback situation was quite different to put it mildly.