Albania v England - Sun 16th Nov, 17:00 | World Cup Qualifier

hilts said:
True but anyone who thinks Gazza didn't have unbelievable talent doesn't know fuck all about football. I love Foden and think he could be great but he doesnt command a teams performance likes Gazza did.
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Absolutely go along with that, but this is actually a weird conversation. At this point, it means nothing very much to be comparing Phil with Lampard, Gazza, Gerrard, either positively or negatively, because those people completed their careers, and went well into their thirties (not so sure about Gazza, actually, didn't he retire strangely early?). In any case, we're looking at a player who is 25. Logically, he is just now coming into his prime. He could easily count on seven, eight more years at absolutely top level.
Let's assess him as one of England's great all-time midfielders eight years up the road.
I don't personally think the trophies won argument really holds water either way. Roger Hunt was a World Cup medal winner. Jimmy Greaves was not. Hunt was a donkey compared to Greaves, and few if any would argue otherwise. Actually, come to that, Geoff Hurst was a bit of a donkey compared to Greaves. (I saw both play live, and when Greaves was on it he was like greased lightning…)
 
Just only now seeing the photos of Bellingham's reaction. The guy is an utter tosser. Disgraceful. Very good footballer, but with it all to prove. Problem is, he seems to think he's already done that.
When Erling is subbed by Pep when he's on a hat-trick, he looks pretty disgruntled (and Pep does it regularly!). I understand him. Shit, I'm a bit disgruntled. He doesn't wave his arms about. He doesn't shake Pep's hand without making any eye contact. This is a guy who is without question the best striker in the world. He could go anywhere. But with Pep, you don't fuck about, you don't throw hissy fits. Cancelo discovered that in short order. The team is always bigger. I repeat — Bellingham would not have survived five minutes under Pep's tutelage. And I actually now doubt that he is capable of learning and improving. Which is a genuine pity, because he is a seriously good footballer.
 
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bridgeno1 said:
With Rice, often he takes up more of an 8 role for Arsenal with Zubimendi in the 6 and/or one of the defenders inverting.

Today Bellingham was getting in everyone's way playing as an 8 and a 10 and there seemed to be genuine confusion as to what the heck was going on. So when Stones inverted into a 6 role, Wharton was probably thinking he wanted to push forward but Bellingham was there and Rice likewise. There were a couple of moments when Bellingham actually passed for once but delayed so much that Rice was offside. There seems to be a big lack of chemistry and connection there and that's a worry.
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I would say both bellend and kane were getting in everyone's else's way.
 
Lovebitesandeveryfing said:
Just only now seeing the photos of Bellingham's reaction. The guy is an utter tosser. Disgraceful. Very good footballer, but with it all to prove. Problem is, he seems to think he's already done that.
When Erling is subbed by Pep when he's on a hat-trick, he looks pretty disgruntled (and Pep does it regularly!). I understand him. Shit, I'm a bit disgruntled. He doesn't wave his arms about. He doesn't shake Pep's hand without making any eye contact. This is a guy who is without question the best striker in the world. He could go anywhere. But with Pep, you don't fuck about, you don't throw hissy fits. Cancelo discovered that in short order. The team is always bigger. I repeat — Bellingham would not have survived five minutes under Pep's tutelage. And I actually now doubt that he is capable of learning and improving. Which is a genuine pity, because he is a seriously good footballer.
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He would have survived and gotten better for it. But chances are he would have been on the bench for a month or two.

Players, or their egos, are their biggest foes. Many young players, who become stars too soon, cannot develop further and fail later. Sancho is a good example. Bellingham is more professional and works hard on the pitch. But he lacks vision, intelligence and the like to become a truly great player. Could have learned a lot from Pep.
 
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bridgeno1 said:
Winning is at least in particular a factor of being at the right club. Scott Carson has a bunch of medals but he isn't better than most PL keepers. People like Matt Le Tissier, Alan Shearer, Francesco Totti etc stayed at clubs that they loved despite them not being teams that competed for titles regularly - they'd have walked into the top teams of their day.

Foden is a superb player but for some reason it hasn't always worked out for him in an England shirt. Many such cases with other players too. He still has youth on his side and that can change but there's also an element of when he gets in he needs to take his chance - I hope he does as an England side with a peak Foden will be far better for it but as it stands the gaffer prefers having Bellingham in that role. Personally I think it clutters up the midfield and will get found out against the top sides but unlike Herr Tuchel I'm not a football manager who gets paid millions so my opinion isn't worth much.
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The 'problem' Foden has is he is coached by the best coach in the world. He has to drop his standard for England. You see Phil get the ball look up and kane has gone for a wander.
How can Phil take his chance when its only the City lads on his wavelength ?. Same with O'Reilly made loads of overlapping runs only to be ignored by Rashford.
Yes kane has scored alot but that's be honest 80% are against pub teams.

I love Phil he is by far the best England player at the moment, just sad he wasn't born Spanish or French who would build a time around him. Instead Phil is used as a stop gap in the past as southgate didnt have the balls to deal with bellend or taa.
 
Chatgpt didn't have all the stats available so the figures are ropey but as they support my point I will use them away. Foden has a slightly higher G/A record per game than Gerrard and Lampard, significantly more than Scholes. Beckham has a higher number of goals but only by 1. Foden also is slightly ahead of Merlin so obviously stats can be misleading. Foden has outscored and assisted Gascoigne massively in slightly less games but with still 5 seasons at least ahead of him.

Foden gets absolutely nothing like the respect he deserves primarily because he plays for City but also because he doesn't kick the ball hard and we tend to like players who do. Consider his goal against Everton in the 23/24 season. Miles out but places in the corner. Looks easy to we assume it is

For the very little it's worth I think Foden and Gascoigne have similar skills but Gascoigne has a bigger personality so he's remembered. Foden does madness then gets on with it. Fodens also playing with some great players which helps his stats but also means he's sharing the limelight.
 
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There's the danger of sounding like rawk-ish cultists: some of us want to argue that our players are the best in the world.

In reality, three players aside, one of them out injured, we don't have the best players (our squad is great, though). But most of our players are highly talented and some have the potential to be the best in their positions: say, Gvardiol, O'Reilly, Foden, Doku, Cherki. Maybe Gonzalez as well.

Ultimately, it depends on Foden to prove his critics wrong by helping City win the lot, including the CL. If he does it, he will be recognised as better than his competitors, including Bellingham, Saka and Palmer.
 
alexmcity said:
Good points. Personally, I think Bellingham is guaranteed to start. Tuchel won't have the balls to drop him in the US. He isn't Pep, who showed the door to Ronaldinho and benched big names like Aguero when they didn't play according to instructions.

Also, Bellingham is part of the leadership group now. I wonder why Stones isn't in it, given he's one of the most experienced and decorated English players.

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That leadership group is utter bollocks
 
alexmcity said:
There's the danger of sounding like rawk-ish cultists: some of us want to argue that our players are the best in the world.

In reality, three players aside, one of them out injured, we don't have the best players (our squad is great, though). But most of our players are highly talented and some have the potential to be the best in their positions: say, Gvardiol, O'Reilly, Foden, Doku, Cherki. Maybe Gonzalez as well.

Ultimately, it depends on Foden to prove his critics wrong by helping City win the lot, including the CL. If he does it, he will be recognised as better than his competitors, including Bellingham, Saka and Palmer.
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I thought Foden has already won the lot ! Also player of the season award.
 
give it to gordon said:
I thought Foden has already won the lot ! Also player of the season award.
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He won the Treble without being in the first XI. He was one of the very best players in the PL in 23/24, but Rodri was the best player in the world that season, and Haaland scored more goals and had more goal involvements. More importantly, both Rodri and Haaland have shown they are the best with their nationals teams, Foden hasn't (arguably not his fault). Non-City fans don't argue against Rodri and Haaland being the best for a reason.

The WC is next year. Foden can show to Tuchel he's better than the rest this season. He has been brilliant in some games (Everton, Dortmund...) and works very hard. Also, he looks very confident and is very calm about not being started by Tuchel, which is great and will help him. He has matured.
 
alexmcity said:
He won the Treble without being in the first XI. He was one of the very best players in the PL in 23/24, but Rodri was the best player in the world that season, and Haaland scored more goals and had more goal involvements. More importantly, both Rodri and Haaland have shown they are the best with their nationals teams, Foden hasn't (arguably not his fault). Non-City fans don't argue against Rodri and Haaland being the best for a reason.

The WC is next year. Foden can show to Tuchel he's better than the rest this season. He has been brilliant in some games (Everton, Dortmund...) and works very hard. Also, he looks very confident and is very calm about not being started by Tuchel, which is great and will help him. He has matured.
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Well there's no excuses for Phil anymore if Tuchel starts using him.

I think us City fans have made excuses for Phil in the past when it comes to England. We've blamed Southgate despite Southgate starting him plenty and in the same positions that Pep has a lot of the time.

It's easy to point the finger at Southgate or make other excuses but it never stopped other players putting in good performances for Waistcoat. Saka for example always did well.

A player as good as Phil should have been putting in better performances for England. He's been under par and we found excuses for him. Time for him to force his way in the team and start making an impact like we know he can.
 
blue_danube said:
Well there's no excuses for Phil anymore if Tuchel starts using him.

I think us City fans have made excuses for Phil in the past when it comes to England. We've blamed Southgate despite Southgate starting him plenty and in the same positions that Pep has a lot of the time.

It's easy to point the finger at Southgate or make other excuses but it never stopped other players putting in good performances for Waistcoat. Saka for example always did well.

A player as good as Phil should have been putting in better performances for England. He's been under par and we found excuses for him. Time for him to force his way in the team and start making an impact like we know he can.
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You’re forgetting he hasn’t played in his best position like every other player does! He has played 10 times in his favoured position 2 times in tournaments one of those times it was against the Netherlands where he was brilliant and contributed with the big win.. I’ll give Foden not excuses when in he preferred position!
 
waspish said:
You’re forgetting he hasn’t played in his best position like every other player does! He has played 10 times in his favoured position 2 times in tournaments one of those times it was against the Netherlands where he was brilliant and contributed with the big win.. I’ll give Foden not excuses when in he preferred position!
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But when he was mostly playing for England, Pep wasn't using him as a 10 then either.

Tuchel has at least acknowledged that Phil isn't a wide player. That possibly limits his chances though. Tuchel isn't playing a false 9 while Kane has two working feet and he's already said Bellingham is a 10..so it's probably between Phil and Bellingham for that position.

Phil is the better player and Bellend isn't doing himself any favours by acting a prick with a manager who doesn't suffer fools. So let's see.
 
TonyColemansbagofapples said:
Two reasons. The first is so bloody obvious you must be Stevie Wonder not to see it. Nobody passes to him. Watch the next time he plays for England. Both arms up in the air screaming in vain for the ball.
The second is less obvious. The players in that England squad are nowhere near his level of intelligence.....Rice, Henderson, Rashford, Rogers, Saka, Bellend, Guehi, James, etc, etc.
Open your eyes mate. I assume you left Fatboy off the list to avoid more criticism.
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He needs to have that David Silva word with them. To paraphrase El Mago, 'If I'm asking for the ball, even if it looks like I'm marked, give it to me. Trust me, I've got them exactly where I want them.'
 
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