President Trump

WT86 said:
No, I don't recall Britain ever fought the Nazis on their own.

You say these countries are up to put Putin in his place, but they're not are they. European leaders aren't willing to take the risk.

With regard to people claiming we should break up NATO, it's Brexit-type thinking all over again, on both sides of the Atlantic. Everything will be great again if you just tell your allies to fuck off. Except maybe it won't.
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By your own analysis it's a fairly unilateral 'fuck off'. European leaders are still desperately hoping to keep Atlanticism going on life support until better days come. The probmem they have though is that Trump isn't simply adopting an isolationist position he's actively undermining post war European values and has made it clear he'd like to see them gone and people of a like mind to him running Europe. Sadly for as long as he's in power and any subsequent equivalents, the US is increasingly Europe's enemy not it's friend.
 
threespires said:
By your own analysis it's a fairly unilateral 'fuck off'. European leaders are still desperately hoping to keep Atlanticism going on life support until better days come. The probmem they have though is that Trump isn't simply adopting an isolationist position he's actively undermining post war European values and has made it clear he'd like to see them gone and people of a like mind to him running Europe. Sadly for as long as he's in power and any subsequent equivalents, the US is increasingly Europe's enemy not it's friend.
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I agree. I don't think we should abandon the alliance, or let a pissant like Trump affect the longer-term relationship if we can help it. I was responding to a poster suggesting we should.

That being said I do think European leaders should take more initiative on Russia and it's disappointing to see that they haven't and that they continue to let Trump call the tune.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
Trump admires Putin and wants the US to be like Russia.
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I honestly think it's more self-centred than that - he wants to be like Putin. All-powerful, unquestioned.

Whatever he's doing to America is merely a by-product.

It's all about him. Even if a member of his family should become POTUS 48, jealousy would soon cause a fall-out between them, unless they were a puppet.
 
WT86 said:
No, I don't recall Britain ever fought the Nazis on their own.

You say these countries are up to put Putin in his place, but they're not are they. European leaders aren't willing to take the risk.

With regard to people claiming we should break up NATO, it's Brexit-type thinking all over again, on both sides of the Atlantic. Everything will be great again if you just tell your allies to fuck off. Except maybe it won't.
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The Brexit vote would have been different if Trump tariffs had been on the agenda then.

It's not Europe messing with NATO. It's the fascist in what's left of the White House.
 
noseve said:
I honestly think it's more self-centred than that - he wants to be like Putin. All-powerful, unquestioned.

Whatever he's doing to America is merely a by-product.

It's all about him. Even if a member of his family should become POTUS 48, jealousy would soon cause a fall-out between them, unless they were a puppet.
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It’s all about money and his legacy. That’s all he knows.

Can I just say, even though you have to respect their opinion, how fucking stupid do you have to be to give him your vote. He’s gives you nothing!
 
Trump and the Americans are saying a big fuck you to their traditional allies from a current position of strength.

Everything they do is because the kinda know they are the most powerful country on earth and so nothing will touch them in their homeland.

What happens in a few years when the Chinese are more powerful than them.

Be interesting when they have totally ruined their relationship with the rest of the world and they end up in the same boat as Ukraine is in now!
 
Norbert D said:
It’s agent orange who’s trying to break up NATO. Britain fought from 1939 to 1941 pretty much alone against the Nazi’s. If you don’t see that you’re probably not worth the effort.
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Agreed, we Brits were pretty much alone from 1939, and bore the full brunt of the Nazi "Blitz Kreig" in the summer of 1940 especially.

The Americans declared war on Japan and Germany on the 11/12/1941, only 20 days short of being 1942, and only in response to Pearl Harbour.

Plus everything that we bought equipment wise from America, was bought under the "Lease and Lend" scheme. We also had to give them the latest technology like Radar, and we repaid everything in full, down to the last dollar in December 2006, some 61 years after WW2 ended.
 
Mr Ed (The Stables) said:
Agreed, we Brits were pretty much alone from 1939, and bore the full brunt of the Nazi "Blitz Kreig" in the summer of 1940 especially.

The Americans declared war on Japan and Germany on the 11/12/1941, only 20 days short of being 1942, and only in response to Pearl Harbour.

Plus everything that we bought equipment wise from America, was bought under the "Lease and Lend" scheme. We also had to give them the latest technology like Radar, and we repaid everything in full, down to the last dollar in December 2006, some 61 years after WW2 ended.
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Britain not quite alone. Even though the peak of the empire had passed, still accounted for something like 25% of the world. Canada, Australia, India, South Africa, etc all made massive contributions.
The GDP of the US in 1938 approx $800bn and rising, British empire approx $600bn and declining, Germany maybe $400bn.
Wars are very expensive and the richest generally win. Britain was effectively skint by 1945 relying on US money and paying the US for 60 years as you say.
 
Blue Maverick said:
And had they not there’s a good chance everyone not just Europeans would be speaking German, unless you are Jewish, black gay etc, a bit like Trump is trying to do now.
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They'd be speaking Russian not German. Germany would still have lost WW2 without the Americans but there would have been nothing much apart from the British to stop them expanding their new Soviet empire from Eastern Europe all through Western Europe at the end of WW2 and after.
 
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The Future’s Blue! said:
It’s all about money and his legacy. That’s all he knows.

Can I just say, even though you have to respect their opinion, how fucking stupid do you have to be to give him your vote. He’s gives you nothing!
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You don’t have to respect their opinion. On the contrary you can call it out as a fucking stupid thing to do, as in fact you did.

Everyone should have the right to an opinion. The opinion has to stand up to scrutiny to be respected
 
WT86 said:
I agree. I don't think we should abandon the alliance, or let a pissant like Trump affect the longer-term relationship if we can help it. I was responding to a poster suggesting we should.

That being said I do think European leaders should take more initiative on Russia and it's disappointing to see that they haven't and that they continue to let Trump call the tune.
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You are advancing two, mutually exclusive arguments.

The first is that Europe needs to do more. I agree.

The second is that Europe should continue with the alliance whilst Trump (and presumably any of his succeeding acolytes) are in power. How do you see Europe approaching and managing that alliance in those circumstances?
 
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