2020 US Elections

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SWP's back said:
Absolutely fucking criminal. At least it should be.



Can you believe we had pseudo intellects on here before the election attempting to make out that Trump was no different to any of his predecessors? Fucking cowards no where to be seen now.

1,000 dying a day. 175k new infections a day and Trump’s administration refuse to work with the transition team to ensure lives are saved.
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Let's hope the GOP pay for this in the Georgia run offs for the Senate.
 
Rascal said:
Which is exactly my point. You have small pockets of leftists amongst the parties of Capitalism. The leftists wont get anywhere because even Biden is described as a Socialist and he would fit quite comfortably into the UK Tory party.

This below ain't aimed at you Mr Fog

People on here are getting the impression I feel that I am a fan of Trump, which couldnt be further from the truth. I am an anti-capitalist, I think he is a twat, but I also happen to think that Biden is more hawkish than Trump and as they are both capitalists I see little choice between them. It depends what we in the UK want or expect from our supposed greatest ally. Trump hasnt taken our troops along with his into another pointless war, where I think Biden is far more likely and with him holding the cards over any post brexit trade deal, who knows how much the UK could be dry bummed.

Rather than critique individual points, why don't you critique the long post I made about democratic subversion and why voting fraud is a smokescreen for greater things. If you want to debate, debate fully and explain why you think voting fraud ain't subversion and its just Trump being a mardy arsed kid like i assume many of you think. I do actually think Trump is a lot cannier than the liberal media give him credit for. The thing is mocking him and making out he is some sort of stupid covers the fact he isn't and he is dangerous.
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No one thinks you're a fan of Trump. You haven't participated in any of the discussions here for the years we've been having them and you haven't demonstrated that you have any grasp of America, its people, nor its politics. Do you care about learning from those of us who do have a grasp? I won't "debate" you because I don't know what we're debating. I don't recall your post about "democratic subversion" and "voter fraud" and I'd rather discuss the issues at hand with those who have something to gain/lose, in reality or emotionally. You don't because you've already decided that something that doesn't matter to the vast majority of Americans (that there's no "left wing" as a Brit would define it -- yeah? So the fuck what?) is more important because it matters to you. I don't agree; what's the point in debating?

Another thought: if the politics "don't matter" because they're "the same" you should be even MORE appalled by Trump than the rest of us, because you should be making a call solely based on the person. Why aren't you?
 
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gordondaviesmoustache said:
It’s not about politics for me. Trump is irredeemably malign to his very core. I’m struggling to think of a worse example of a human being currently in a position of political power. If he was running a country like North Korea the atrocities there would be even worse imo. Without a shadow of doubt in my mind. He is almost certainly clinically insane and definitely suffers from numerous personality disorders. He has all the qualities I (and many others) most dislike in others. A graceless, utterly selfish, humourless, lying, egocentric, deluded, boorish, bullying, dishonest, paranoid, spineless, unkind, empathy-free, predatory, cruel, classless, rude, horrible **** of a human being.

Having someone like that in charge of a country like the US is not a good thing and his removal from office, to be replaced by someone who appears to me to be far more benign, has to be a good thing, irrespective of politics.
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Exactly. Rascal is reading way too much into Trump’s antics IMO. I don’t for one minute believe that this is part of a wider agenda to mobilise far right factions around the world to “muddy the waters” and claim voter fraud in future elections. Obviously his actions will no doubt appeal to those types of people because we know being a racist **** is one of the many unpalatable traits of his but IMO the top and bottom of it is that this is Trump being Trump and living up to his vile textbook narcissism in the most public and destructive way imaginable.

And speaking of narcissism, I find it odd that Rasc hasn’t appeared to reference it in any posts relating to Trump when last year he was often using the term when referencing Johnson. I say odd because there is clearly far more evidence of Trump being a narcissist than there is of Johnson being one. Sure, Johnson is a bungling idiot and at times a **** but that does not necessarily make him a narcissist. That’s not to say he definitely isn’t one but if he is then he’s a covert narcissist, whereas Trump is an overt narcissist.
 
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M18CTID said:
Exactly. Rascal is reading way too much into Trump’s antics IMO. I don’t for one minute believe that this is part of a wider agenda to mobilise far right factions around the world to “muddy the waters” and claim voter fraud in future elections. Obviously his actions will no doubt appeal to those types of people because we know being a racist **** is one of the many unpalatable traits of his but IMO the top and bottom of it is that this is Trump being Trump and living up to his vile textbook narcissism in the most public and destructive way imaginable.
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The farther to the edges of the political spectrum you go, the more totalitarianism doesn't bother you, whether right or left. I assure you if Trump was galvanizing the "left" he'd be telling us it was about time an American president was acting like this and more power to him.

As it ever was.
 
FogBlueInSanFran said:
The farther to the edges of the political spectrum you go, the more totalitarianism doesn't bother you, whether right or left. I assure you if Trump was galvanizing the "left" he'd be telling us it was about time and American president did that.

As it ever was.
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I would have thought that it would have limited appeal outside those controlling the system and be of less benefit to the masses.
 
Rascal said:
Which is exactly my point. You have small pockets of leftists amongst the parties of Capitalism. The leftists wont get anywhere because even Biden is described as a Socialist and he would fit quite comfortably into the UK Tory party.

This below ain't aimed at you Mr Fog

People on here are getting the impression I feel that I am a fan of Trump, which couldnt be further from the truth. I am an anti-capitalist, I think he is a twat, but I also happen to think that Biden is more hawkish than Trump and as they are both capitalists I see little choice between them. It depends what we in the UK want or expect from our supposed greatest ally. Trump hasnt taken our troops along with his into another pointless war, where I think Biden is far more likely and with him holding the cards over any post brexit trade deal, who knows how much the UK could be dry bummed.

Rather than critique individual points, why don't you critique the long post I made about democratic subversion and why voting fraud is a smokescreen for greater things. If you want to debate, debate fully and explain why you think voting fraud ain't subversion and its just Trump being a mardy arsed kid like i assume many of you think. I do actually think Trump is a lot cannier than the liberal media give him credit for. The thing is mocking him and making out he is some sort of stupid covers the fact he isn't and he is dangerous.
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Are you feeling alright, mate? You didn’t mention Neolibs once
 
Len Rum said:
To any USA forum punters out there.
I 'd never heard of the Independent candidate Jo Jorgensen before and she got little mention on the media over here.
But she polled enough votes to hold the balance in some of the swing states that flipped from the Don to Joe.
Did she really have an impact on the result?
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No
 
FogBlueInSanFran said:
Not as much as Gary Johnson did in 2016. Did she steal from Biden or Trump? Probably Trump given her platform. Libertarians tend to be conservative fiscally but liberal socially -- and have absolutely zero understanding of the concept of a social good.

I have yet to meet a Libertarian who has any friends at all
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libertarians are usually okay with social programs that directly benefit them, they just don’t want anybody else to benefit.
 
It's quite simple really for me

Trump is a sociopathic ego driven dangerous **** only out for his interests amd money, hence his disinterest with getting involved overseas unless deals are to be done, but if he ever did get involved wouldn't put it past him bombing allies and enemies.

Added to that he has not stopped the CIA fucking about in south america, still let yemen be blown to shite and stitched up the kurds etc, so he is hardly not interfering. (Thoigh he may not have been aware of the first two the self obsessed wanker)

Biden is just your general capitalist bellend with some idea that what happens in other countries is americas business and who will interfere if he sees fit, a more sensible option in the white house, but still...

I don't expect america to ever go anywhere near left wing bar pockets, and that is why it will always be a shit canada
 
FogBlueInSanFran said:
No one thinks you're a fan of Trump. You haven't participated in any of the discussions here for the years we've been having them and you haven't demonstrated that you have any grasp of America, its people, nor its politics. Do you care about learning from those of us who do have a grasp? I won't "debate" you because I don't know what we're debating. I don't recall your post about "democratic subversion" and "voter fraud" and I'd rather discuss the issues at hand with those who have something to gain/lose, in reality or emotionally. You don't because you've already decided that something that doesn't matter to the vast majority of Americans (that there's no "left wing" as a Brit would define it -- yeah? So the fuck what?) is more important because it matters to you. I don't agree; what's the point in debating?

Another thought: if the politics "don't matter" because they're "the same" you should be even MORE appalled by Trump than the rest of us, because you should be making a call solely based on the person. Why aren't you?
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My post was only a few pages back, it had a video attached from Yanis Varoufakis, and it is relevant to the whole of the western world. Ok if you don't want to read my post, its not a problem and my view is from a British perspective of course because the board we are on is based in the UK. So i am defo seeing things from a totally different perspective to you because you live it directly, i live it indirectly, Which was the point of the post you don't want to debate which is again fair enough because it doesn't affect you per se. Although i would argue it will affect you in the future.

Whether you like it or are indeed even interested what Trump is doing with the whole voter fraud delusion it is affecting the UK and its effects on the UK politics do matter to me, because his politics are seen by our far right as examplars of how they can achieve power. The planting of seeds around voter fraud ferment in the minds of the far right and will lead to a situation where minorities in the UK are delegitimised and disenfranchised. Again that is of no import to you as you don't live here but I do and the rise of the far right and the spectre of fascism is on the rise across the whole of Europe.

In a way then we are cross debating, because we have different agenda to debate about. What happens in your country is of course your business and what happens in mine is my business but there are crossovers in the debate and issues that affect both of our nations and Trump is the factor.

I reiterate i think Trump is a twat, but i dont live under his twatishness, it does affect us though. Our politics and political parties are different, our political processes and electoral systems are different and when i compare and contrast UK and US political parties i do see differences. As i am of the far left in todays UK terms, possibly something you do not come across very often in the US where the likes of Biden are routinely described as Socialists it is obvious where we differ. I do see the two American parties as right wing parties, but i am as i described earlier an anti capitalist and anti free market. I am a statist who would be inherently comfortable with a command economy. I am also of the leftist tradition of Lenin in that i am anti imperialist as well, so maybe that explains to you why Biden as a hawk is somebody i do see as a threat. I am also NATO sceptic and believe it lost its original mission and has become a tool for corporate capitalist expansionism.

Again though as much as i think Trump is a twat, ****, fuck face or whatever other expletive is fashionable i do still him as a person who has halted corporate expansionism through his NATO sceptic approach. I abhor his racism and his pandering to the far right in the US and i do think he is a narcissist on a par with our PM, but they are both products of capitalism and therefore i have different reasons for my abhorrence than maybe you do.
 
SWP's back said:
No, some have posted that Trump is a figment of our media fed imagination and that he’s no different to other politicians past and present. That he’s not a malignant narcissist, that he’s not a wannabe dictator, that he’s not a sociopath, that he does care for the lives of Americans and that he does care about the environment.
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Trump Derangement Syndrome, mate.

We all fell for it.
 
Policy, like ideology, is a distraction, when the criticism is that the people involved regard their status as holder of the office as more important than working for the nation's benefit.
 
Whether you like it or are indeed even interested what Trump is doing with the whole voter fraud delusion it is affecting the UK and its effects on the UK politics do matter to me, because his politics are seen by our far right as examplars of how they can achieve power. The planting of seeds around voter fraud ferment in the minds of the far right and will lead to a situation where minorities in the UK are delegitimised and disenfranchised. Again that is of no import to you as you don't live here but I do and the rise of the far right and the spectre of fascism is on the rise across the whole of Europe.
Rascal said:
In a way then we are cross debating, because we have different agenda to debate about. What happens in your country is of course your business and what happens in mine is my business but there are crossovers in the debate and issues that affect both of our nations and Trump is the factor.

I reiterate i think Trump is a twat, but i dont live under his twatishness, it does affect us though. Our politics and political parties are different, our political processes and electoral systems are different and when i compare and contrast UK and US political parties i do see differences. As i am of the far left in todays UK terms, possibly something you do not come across very often in the US where the likes of Biden are routinely described as Socialists it is obvious where we differ. I do see the two American parties as right wing parties, but i am as i described earlier an anti capitalist and anti free market. I am a statist who would be inherently comfortable with a command economy. I am also of the leftist tradition of Lenin in that i am anti imperialist as well, so maybe that explains to you why Biden as a hawk is somebody i do see as a threat. I am also NATO sceptic and believe it lost its original mission and has become a tool for corporate capitalist expansionism.

Again though as much as i think Trump is a twat, ****, fuck face or whatever other expletive is fashionable i do still him as a person who has halted corporate expansionism through his NATO sceptic approach. I abhor his racism and his pandering to the far right in the US and i do think he is a narcissist on a par with our PM, but they are both products of capitalism and therefore i have different reasons for my abhorrence than maybe you do.
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I appreciate the amount of time you put in to explain your perspective. If you are coming at a perspective on Trump from a statist approach then surely he would be your guy. Statists can unilaterally change — doesn’t a substantial amount of English history say so? Whereas a capitalist who is beholden to the will of the people and their corporatist rein-holders is beholden to the system. Statism and a command economy combined with closed-wall foreign policy is precisely what Trump would create if he could, so systematically all you need is someone to convert him to a more Socialist/Marxist world view. A lot easier to do that than tear down an entire system and its oligarchs. Unless you think he’s irredeemable. If you ensured he’d be in power, faced no consequences, could see those who oppose him punished while still living lavishly, I’m sure he’d be happy to embrace universal basic income, free health care, state-owned industry and the immediate dismantling of all international alliances.
 
FogBlueInSanFran said:
I appreciate the amount of time you put in to explain your perspective. If you are coming at a perspective on Trump from a statist approach then surely he would be your guy. Statists can unilaterally change — doesn’t a substantial amount of English history say so? Whereas a capitalist who is beholden to the will of the people and their corporatist rein-holders is beholden to the system. Statism and a command economy combined with closed-wall foreign policy is precisely what Trump would create if he could, so systematically all you need is someone to convert him to a more Socialist/Marxist world view. A lot easier to do that than tear down an entire system and its oligarchs. Unless you think he’s irredeemable. If you ensured he’d be in power, faced no consequences, could see those who oppose him punished while still living lavishly, I’m sure he’d be happy to embrace universal basic income, free health care, state-owned industry and the immediate dismantling of all international alliances.
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It of course depends on how you view Statism. i would describe my approach as a Democratic Socialist approach, therefore democracy is important and i would want to win elections on a platform rather than impose a platform, even though i am economically authoritarian and support state controls of the market, also as a Democratic Socialist i would consider myself an Internationalist rather than being of the closed wall ilk.

Trump wouldn't be my guy because he is a capitalist and i doubt very much Marx would appeal to him in any shape or form. Though i do think you make quite a valid point in that to stay in power he could quite conceivably change his stance on the things you mention to suit as he does come across as ideologically barren. In that sense he does mirror the UK Conservative party as they change their ideals to suit where as mine are more or less sacrosanct.

On that note Mr Fog i am off to bed as my brain is saying sleeps.
 
Rascal said:
It of course depends on how you view Statism. i would describe my approach as a Democratic Socialist approach, therefore democracy is important and i would want to win elections on a platform rather than impose a platform, even though i am economically authoritarian and support state controls of the market, also as a Democratic Socialist i would consider myself an Internationalist rather than being of the closed wall ilk.

Trump wouldn't be my guy because he is a capitalist and i doubt very much Marx would appeal to him in any shape or form. Though i do think you make quite a valid point in that to stay in power he could quite conceivably change his stance on the things you mention to suit as he does come across as ideologically barren. In that sense he does mirror the UK Conservative party as they change their ideals to suit where as mine are more or less sacrosanct.

On that note Mr Fog i am off to bed as my brain is saying sleeps.
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Fair enough. I really appreciate your perspective.
 
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