#47 | Phil Foden - 2019/20 Performances

[Tugay One Cup]

He had a bad game

I'm not having a go or anything but... did he?

When I think of a bad game I think of a time when nothing goes right for a player or they make constantly poor decisions. Like Kev's sub appearance against Southampton or the vast majority of Otamendi's career.

Yesterday Phil was absolutely fine, he just didn't get involved too much because we were dogshit and he was stuck out wide. David also used to get accused of poor performances in his earlier years because he was a central midfielder being forced out wide and would be so much less involved as a result.

 

[Larry Stranger]

I didn't say otherwise. All I said is Phil is a much, much better 8 than Ilkay.

I think if he scored or assisted yesterday than this thread would be ten pages longer with comments saying what an amazing player we have. But he didn't so it isn't.

It was exactly the same against Fulham earlier this year. Phil gets put out of position and doesn't have his best game (not a bad game, it's should be noted, but one where he has less influence) and then a handful of commenters sit here and think... "maybe he's not as good as we thought."

He is and this fanbase is too fickle to fully realise it.

and like I said maybe in the 4-3-3 where 2 duo #8's who are essentially #10's. Not in a 4-2-3-1.

 

[Tugay One Cup]

and like I said maybe in the 4-3-3 where 2 duo #8's who are essentially #10's. Not in a 4-2-3-1.

So I'm not sure what your point is.

You want an 8 or a 10, you pick Foden. You want a 6, you pick Gundogan. It's like comparing Rodri to David Silva.

All I've said is that Phil is a central midfielder, not a winger. He can do a job there but it's not where his strengths lie.

He's infinitely more adept at recieving the ball in the middle of the pitch with his back to goal and taking two touches to eliminate three opposition players than he is at getting the ball out wide, isolating a defender 1v1 and taking on his man.

There's a whole lot more to it than that but I'll just keep it short by saying playing Foden as a winger is similar to playing Fernandinho as a centre back. Will he do a good job? Yes because he's excellent. Will he be as good as in his natural position? Most of the time, no.

 

[ADegenerate]

His skill set isn’t optimal in the traditional sense for wide players at the highest WC levels. He’s a pure 10 through and through, but that’s been phased out of the modern game. Throwing him out wide seems to be a disservice to what he does best and that’s scoring/creating from a central areas. Can he do a job out wide and do it serviceably? Of course. Look what’s happening to Bernardo. He’s not a First choice free 8 and he’s been bamboozled by Mahrez at RW. That’s not a disservice to Bernardo he’s just not optimal for this system and with this squad at the current time.

Would you rather have raz/sane/Mahrez/sanes replacement or play Phil wide? His future isn’t there. You need specific elite skillsets for certain areas of the pitch. Phil has seriously elite level talent playing centrally and frankly I’ll be disappointed in his development if he’s just stuck out wide in some games, plays centrally some, rotated here and there, wait and see what happens as time goes on, etc.

I’m all for competition but he’s ready for the opportunity to lock down a position...not float. You bring in Aouar and I think that’s just a risk not worth taking.

Next year is absolutely crucial to his potential short term rise to the top. Is that a bet the club wants to make? Highly doubt it but that’s also why it was the best decision for sancho to leave and look how that’s playing out. I’ll briefly mention greenwood..look at how fast his development blossomed.



@Andrew___K @Larry Stranger

 

[simon23]

Played ok last night but i think he is better in midfield rather than part of the forward 3 - he was isolated at times at the start...

however he also started to drift to the wide right position and it was from there he seemed to inject more urgency into our play

 

[_a_o_]

He needs to be playing regularly in his favoured position next season, be it here or elsewhere - he thrives for England when everything goes through him.

He’s already behind in his development; Kompany and De Bruyne had played circa 100 games in senior football in Belgium by the age of 20, Aguero even more, while David Silva had two productive loan spells at Eibar and Celta before becoming a key player for Valencia. Bayern loaned out Lahm and Kroos etc - a season elsewhere as a catalyst for a team that doesn’t win most games easily could define Foden’s career. Same for Doyle, Harwood-Bellis etc - let them go and play now, with a view to becoming key players for us over the next decade.

 

[ADegenerate]

He needs to be playing regularly in his favoured position next season, be it here or elsewhere - he thrives for England when everything goes through him.

He’s already behind in his development; Kompany and De Bruyne had played circa 100 games in senior football in Belgium by the age of 20, Aguero even more, while David Silva had two productive loan spells at Eibar and Celta before becoming a key player for Valencia. Bayern loaned out Lahm and Kroos etc - a season elsewhere as a catalyst for a team that doesn’t win most games easily could define Foden’s career. Same for Doyle, Harwood-Bellis etc - let them go and play now, with a view to becoming key players for us over the next decade.

I take your point, but isn’t he’s too good and too old to be going out on loan. World class players break out at 18-20 and actually produce at the top levels now. Would you class him below the likes of haaland, sancho, mbappe,...even greenwood? He’s potentially that level.

Sell him or play him, he’s too good. It’s a massive dilemma. Not trying to stir the pot at all either. We’ll find out next season I guess.

 

[eversince 76]

Patience is the magic word. Leave the development to Pep and his team. Playing different positions Is to help and make him even better. I’m sure Foden will be a regular starter soon.

 

[Ezzy]

So I'm not sure what your point is.

You want an 8 or a 10, you pick Foden. You want a 6, you pick Gundogan. It's like comparing Rodri to David Silva.

All I've said is that Phil is a central midfielder, not a winger. He can do a job there but it's not where his strengths lie.

He's infinitely more adept at recieving the ball in the middle of the pitch with his back to goal and taking two touches to eliminate three opposition players than he is at getting the ball out wide, isolating a defender 1v1 and taking on his man.

There's a whole lot more to it than that but I'll just keep it short by saying playing Foden as a winger is similar to playing Fernandinho as a centre back. Will he do a good job? Yes because he's excellent. Will he be as good as in his natural position? Most of the time, no.

People do not really understand the small nuances when it comes to the true advantage of the versatility of Guardiola's players.
The Small Details Matter... a lot:

• Foden is a midfielder (Left, Central, Right)
• Bernardo is a midfielder (Central, Right)

Our entire attacking midfield is built around David Silva & Kevin De Bruyne.

As talented as Foden & Bernardo are... expecting them to be able to replicate David's role in midfield is extremely foolish.

Gundogan is the one midfielder we have who has the skillset to play David's role, but as we know Gundo is very very flawed in that role (especially when Kevin is not playing)

With David leaving & Gundogan's limitations as an 8, we need to completely revamped how our attacking midfield functions.
Doing it mid-season is not the best of ideas.

Kevin is also another midfielder with a sense for goal.

 

[Larry Stranger]

His skill set isn’t optimal in the traditional sense for wide players at the highest WC levels. He’s a pure 10 through and through, but that’s been phased out of the modern game. Throwing him out wide seems to be a disservice to what he does best and that’s scoring/creating from a central areas. Can he do a job out wide and do it serviceably? Of course. Look what’s happening to Bernardo. He’s not a First choice free 8 and he’s been bamboozled by Mahrez at RW. That’s not a disservice to Bernardo he’s just not optimal for this system and with this squad at the current time.

Would you rather have raz/sane/Mahrez/sanes replacement or play Phil wide? His future isn’t there. You need specific elite skillsets for certain areas of the pitch. Phil has seriously elite level talent playing centrally and frankly I’ll be disappointed in his development if he’s just stuck out wide in some games, plays centrally some, rotated here and there, wait and see what happens as time goes on, etc.

I’m all for competition but he’s ready for the opportunity to lock down a position...not float. You bring in Aouar and I think that’s just a risk not worth taking.

Next year is absolutely crucial to his potential short term rise to the top. Is that a bet the club wants to make? Highly doubt it but that’s also why it was the best decision for sancho to leave and look how that’s playing out. I’ll briefly mention greenwood..look at how fast his development blossomed.



@Andrew___K @Larry Stranger

I get it that people don't like Phil out wide. However, he's actually more central then people think. He's out wide when we have to defend and when we play out from the back. So if we transition quickly it's effectively like a counter attack and he can be like a #10 like how he assisted Sterling on the 2nd goal against Liverpool.

When we arrive in the final third it's a 3 pronged attack with the winger, the FB and #8 on both the left and right side. One has to be on the wing, 1 central and 1 holding. So while trying to break a team down you'll see the players switch in these 3 positions and the other will have to fill in the vacated area. On the right you have Mahrez on the wing, but sometimes you'll see him Mahrez central (because he can also be a #10) with Kev out wide or you'll see Walker bomb forward and Kev has to be the temp RB holding.

It's a bit different on the left simply because Dave can't really fill in as LB although I've seen him in those positions (like when Phil plays LW.)

So if Phil is the left winger, when we arrive in the final third he tucks in and is actually in is closer to the the striker than the wing when playing on the left. Mendy would stay out wide like a winger and provide the width. Sometimes Phil ends up on the wing, but so does Dave because of movement and how they are trying to break the team down. When Phil plays on the right he does end up inverting like Mahrez or Bernardo because he ends up cutting in centrally. So in the final 3rd Phil does end up doing things a #10 does.

It won't always be that Phil will play on the wing. One of the reasons is because we don't have Leroy anymore. So our options are limited on the left. When Dave goes I think we may see multiple line ups that differ. We could see Torres on the left inverting with Phil as the #8, or we could see Aouar as the #8 and Phil on the supposed LW tucked in.

Why I still think we need a player like Aouar is because like Dave and Gudogan he offers control of the game. He can be a holding midfielder, but also attack. Pep goes for all 4 trophies and he wants players who can be versatile so he can make multiple formations and line ups.