a secular society by 2030

[mackenzie]

Can you not see the point that I'm making?

Are you saying that John Paul was a paedophile?

Obviously Catholicism has a monopoly on this.

Shutdown Catholicism and it will all magically disappear.

In fact, while we're at it, lets shutdown all religion and government and then we can usher in John Lennon's pipe dream.

EDIT: I simply made the point that John Paul played a role in the downfall of communism and as a Polish priest during the second world war was fighting on the opposite side to Josef Ratzinger.

If my posts in the last few pages have convinced you that I have blind faith, then so be it.

I am saying and have said repeatedly that he protected priests who abused and the present pope was in charge of dealing with a lot of cases himself.Their response was only to protect the church and not a thought for the victims.If it was any other organisation it would have been shut down already.This abuse was worldwide from nuns selling babies to notorious paedophile cases .He should have been brought to book but who wants to take the vatican on?
I should'nt have accused you of having blind faith but this man as a spiritual leader was an abomination and you continually big him up.
Can you not see the point I am making?

Shadz you are dealing with an absolute fucking buffoon here. Your well thought out and rational post will not be met with a similar response. It will be met with our resident Methodist happy clapper spouting irrelevant passages of the bible at you. I've already text his nurse to tell them it's time for his meds and that he is on the Internet unsupervised.

Do you ever post anything that isn't a direct attack on a fellow poster? Or post a point of your own?

 

[pauldominic]

Can you not see the point that I'm making?

Are you saying that John Paul was a paedophile?

Obviously Catholicism has a monopoly on this.

Shutdown Catholicism and it will all magically disappear.

In fact, while we're at it, lets shutdown all religion and government and then we can usher in John Lennon's pipe dream.

EDIT: I simply made the point that John Paul played a role in the downfall of communism and as a Polish priest during the second world war was fighting on the opposite side to Josef Ratzinger.

If my posts in the last few pages have convinced you that I have blind faith, then so be it.

I am saying and have said repeatedly that he protected priests who abused and the present pope was in charge of dealing with a lot of cases himself.Their response was only to protect the church and not a thought for the victims.If it was any other organisation it would have been shut down already.This abuse was worldwide from nuns selling babies to notorious paedophile cases .He should have been brought to book but who wants to take the vatican on?
I should'nt have accused you of having blind faith but this man as a spiritual leader was an abomination and you continually big him up.
Can you not see the point I am making?

No I don't "continually big him up" and I thought we had agreement on cover-ups and the church response to paedophilia.

Shall I repeat myself?

I can do if you require.

In terms of "any other organisation", will you be starting a campaign against the BBC for cover-ups and harbouring paedophiles?

I made the point about his fight against nazism and communism in response to NF.

That's a world away from child abuse as an issue for discussion.

 

[Shadz69]

Can you not see the point that I'm making?

Are you saying that John Paul was a paedophile?

Obviously Catholicism has a monopoly on this.

Shutdown Catholicism and it will all magically disappear.

In fact, while we're at it, lets shutdown all religion and government and then we can usher in John Lennon's pipe dream.

EDIT: I simply made the point that John Paul played a role in the downfall of communism and as a Polish priest during the second world war was fighting on the opposite side to Josef Ratzinger.

If my posts in the last few pages have convinced you that I have blind faith, then so be it.

I am saying and have said repeatedly that he protected priests who abused and the present pope was in charge of dealing with a lot of cases himself.Their response was only to protect the church and not a thought for the victims.If it was any other organisation it would have been shut down already.This abuse was worldwide from nuns selling babies to notorious paedophile cases .He should have been brought to book but who wants to take the vatican on?
I should'nt have accused you of having blind faith but this man as a spiritual leader was an abomination and you continually big him up.
Can you not see the point I am making?

No I don't "continually big him up" and I thought we had agreement on cover-ups and the church response to paedophilia.

Shall I repeat myself?

I can do if you require.

In terms of "any other organisation", will you be starting a campaign against the BBC for cover-ups and harbouring paedophiles?

I made the point about his fight against nazism and communism in response to NF.

That's a world away from child abuse as an issue for discussion.

If the BBC moved it's employees around and let them continue to abuse I feel the management would have a case to answer,would you not?I did'nt realise I could'nt mention his role in the abuse scandal while you try to tell us what a great man he was.

 

[Clevers]

I think there's a big difference between the Catholic Church and the BBC insofar as the BBC doesn't base its ethos on the bible and doesn't purport to tell you to lead a good and clean life and obey God's rules then break them itself or condone the people who do.

 

[pauldominic]

I am saying and have said repeatedly that he protected priests who abused and the present pope was in charge of dealing with a lot of cases himself.Their response was only to protect the church and not a thought for the victims.If it was any other organisation it would have been shut down already.This abuse was worldwide from nuns selling babies to notorious paedophile cases .He should have been brought to book but who wants to take the vatican on?
I should'nt have accused you of having blind faith but this man as a spiritual leader was an abomination and you continually big him up.
Can you not see the point I am making?

No I don't "continually big him up" and I thought we had agreement on cover-ups and the church response to paedophilia.

Shall I repeat myself?

I can do if you require.

In terms of "any other organisation", will you be starting a campaign against the BBC for cover-ups and harbouring paedophiles?

I made the point about his fight against nazism and communism in response to NF.

That's a world away from child abuse as an issue for discussion.

If the BBC moved it's employees around and let them continue to abuse I feel the management would have a case to answer,would you not?I did'nt realise I could'nt mention his role in the abuse scandal while you try to tell us what a great man he was.

"If it was any other organisation it would have been shut down already".

The context is different but the principle is the same.

The abuse crimes were committed in roughly the same timeframe, but the BBC isn't a religious organisation.

Good news for them on that front in BM.

If you look at your quote above, you really should be starting a campaign to shut down the BBC for harbouring paedophiles and cover-ups.

The difference is that anyone launching a campaign to do that would look ridiculous.<br /><br />-- Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:04 am --<br /><br />

I think there's a big difference between the Catholic Church and the BBC insofar as the BBC doesn't base its ethos on the bible and doesn't purport to tell you to lead a good and clean life and obey God's rules then break them itself or condone the people who do.

See my point above.

 

[pauldominic]

Sod off then and don't.

I wouldn't trust you to tell me the time or make a brew.

Once more you dodge the point.

May I add that you speaking of irrational thoughts and posts is akin to my dog complaining about other dogs barking.

Report that.

You listen to me.

As long as you and others post nonsense about religion, you'll be challenged.

That's a guarantee.

Presumably if you're asking me to comment on the Pope's Christmas Address, I haven't heard it.

Obviously the anti-catholic brigade are more concerned about what he has to say.

No you fucking listen to me.

You dodge every fucking question that is put your way.

The popes Christmas address is 3 or 4 pages back in transcript. Either comment on it or fuck off talking to me about my "predudices" which is ironic in the extreme given your nazi pope's words.

I wish you would challenge me though. That would be most amusing.

Hahahahaha - thats a classic Sooty.

Do you really think I would go hunting in the cellar for his address?

Personally I'm not sure that your usage of the f word adds anything to the quality of your argument.

If you look at my posts, I've responded to many tonight and I do answer questions directly when I can.

As for the "nazi pope", I've said he's a caretaker and do you really think he's as responsible as Hitler, Himmler, Bormann etc etc.

Perhaps it would be interesting to compare him with Bert Trautmann in terms of nazi war crimes.

The keyword here is "pope" rather than "nazi".

 

[Aguero_Element]

Acceptable<br /><br />-- Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:37 am --<br /><br />Acceptable

 

[tonea2003]

still waiting for johnny or paul to comment on the pope's christmas address

 

[SWP's back]

Here you go Paul seeing as you struggle unless everything is done for you:

The Pope has pressed his opposition to gay marriage today saying the future of mankind is at stake.

Pope Benedict XVI denounced what he described as people manipulating their God-given identities to suit their sexual choices - and destroying the very 'essence of the human creature' in the process.

He made the comments in his annual Christmas address to the Vatican bureaucracy, one of his most important speeches of the year.

Pope Benedict XVI blesses the faithful in St Peter's Square at the Vatican. In his Christmas message, he denounces gay marriage

He dedicated it this year to promoting traditional family values in the face of vocal campaigns in France, the U.S., Britain and elsewhere to legalise same-sex marriage.

In his remarks, Pope Benedict quoted the chief rabbi of France, Gilles Bernheim, in saying the campaign for granting gays the right to marry and adopt children was an 'attack' on the traditional family made up of a father, mother and children.

'People dispute the idea that they have a nature, given to them by their bodily identity, that serves as a defining element of the human being,' he said. 'They deny their nature and decide that it is not something previously given to them, but that they make it for themselves.'

More...
Pope weighs into gay marriage row condemning 'powerful, political and cultural currents'
Police fire tear gas as pro and anti-gay protesters clash across France over plans to legalise same-sex marriage

'The manipulation of nature, which we deplore today where our environment is concerned, now becomes man's fundamental choice where he himself is concerned,' he said.

It was the second time in a week that Pope Benedict has taken on the question of gay marriage, which is dividing France, and which scored big electoral wins in the U.S. last month. In his recently released annual peace message, Pope Benedict said gay marriage, like abortion and euthanasia, was a threat to world peace.

After the peace message was released last week, gay activists staged a small protest in St Peter's Square.

In France, President Hollande has said he would enact his 'marriage for everyone' plan. It has divided the country leading to clashes. Here, tear gas was fired at crowds in Paris as pro and anti gay marriage groups protested

Police officers push back people taking part in a demonstration. Organisers said that 200,000 people marched in the French capital compared with a police estimate of 70,000

A young boy holds a placard reading 'we are all guardians of the Civil Code' during a demonstration to denounce same-sex marriage

Church teaching holds that homosexual acts are 'intrinsically disordered,' though it stresses that gays should be treated with compassion and dignity.

As Pope and as head of the Vatican's orthodoxy watchdog before that, Pope Benedict has been a strong enforcer of that teaching: One of the first major documents released during his pontificate said men with 'deep-seated' homosexual tendencies shouldn't be ordained priests.

For the Vatican, though, the gay marriage issue goes beyond questions of homosexuality, threatening what the church considers to be the bedrock of society: a family based on a man, woman and their children.


'Man and woman as created realities, as the nature of the human being, no longer exist. Man calls his own nature into question. From now on he is merely spirit and will.'


Pope Benedict XVI

In his speech, the pope cited Bernheim as lamenting how a new 'philosophy of sexuality' has taken hold, whereby sex and gender are 'no longer a given element of nature that man has to accept and personally make sense of: it is a social role that we choose for ourselves, while in the past it was chosen for us by society.'

He said God had created man and woman as a specific 'duality' - 'an essential aspect of what being human is all about.'

Now, though, 'Man and woman as created realities, as the nature of the human being, no longer exist. Man calls his own nature into question. From now on he is merely spirit and will.'

The Vatican's opposition to gay marriage has been falling largely on deaf ears. Under then-Socialist leader Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, the largely Roman Catholic Spain legalized gay marriage.

Three U.S. states approved same-sex marriage by popular vote in November elections. Earlier this month, the British government announced it will introduce a bill next year legalizing gay marriage, though it would ban the Church of England from conducting same-sex ceremonies.

In France, President Francois Hollande has said he would enact his 'marriage for everyone' plan within a year of taking office last May. The text will go to parliament next month. But the country has been divided by vocal opposition from religious leaders, prime among them Bernheim, as well as some politicians and parts of rural France.

The Socialist government's plan also envisions legalizing same-sex adoptions. Pope Benedict quoted Bernheim as denouncing the plan, saying that it would mean a child would essentially be considered an object people have a right to obtain.

'When freedom to be creative becomes the freedom to create oneself, then necessarily the Maker himself is denied and ultimately man too is stripped of his dignity as a creature of God,' Benedict said.

And as soon as Bert Trautman is placed here as God's right hand man, then we can debate the merits of his war.

 

[johnny crossan]

still waiting for johnny or paul to comment on the pope's christmas address

It doesn't seem to me that the Pope is saying anything that the Catholic church and many others, secular and religious, haven't said before.
I accept this form of gender politics is currently unfashionable but that doesn't mean that same sex marriage doesn't present significant difficulties for society.

 

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

still waiting for johnny or paul to comment on the pope's christmas address

It doesn't seem to me that the Pope is saying anything that the Catholic church and many others, secular and religious, haven't said before.
I accept this form of gender politics is currently unfashionable but that doesn't mean that same sex marriage doesn't present significant difficulties for society.

Same sex marriages present no significant difficulties for those of us who are capable of entertaining the wild and wacky notion of equality for all.
Only god bothering bigots like you and pauldominic seem to have issues with the concept.

 

[The Flash]

I am saying and have said repeatedly that he protected priests who abused and the present pope was in charge of dealing with a lot of cases himself.Their response was only to protect the church and not a thought for the victims.If it was any other organisation it would have been shut down already.This abuse was worldwide from nuns selling babies to notorious paedophile cases .He should have been brought to book but who wants to take the vatican on?
I should'nt have accused you of having blind faith but this man as a spiritual leader was an abomination and you continually big him up.
Can you not see the point I am making?

Shadz you are dealing with an absolute fucking buffoon here. Your well thought out and rational post will not be met with a similar response. It will be met with our resident Methodist happy clapper spouting irrelevant passages of the bible at you. I've already text his nurse to tell them it's time for his meds and that he is on the Internet unsupervised.

Do you ever post anything that isn't a direct attack on a fellow poster? Or post a point of your own?

Indeed I do.

 

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

Shadz you are dealing with an absolute fucking buffoon here. Your well thought out and rational post will not be met with a similar response. It will be met with our resident Methodist happy clapper spouting irrelevant passages of the bible at you. I've already text his nurse to tell them it's time for his meds and that he is on the Internet unsupervised.

Do you ever post anything that isn't a direct attack on a fellow poster? Or post a point of your own?

Indeed I do.

I wouldn't lose sleep over her mate.
She only plucks up the courage to make personal attacks when she's polished off the cooking sherry.

 

[stonerblue]

Anyone ever heard of two atheists called Stalin and Mao? Killed the odd person between them, but of course nowhere near the same level of evil as Pope Benedict.

Not sure about Adolf - he was nominally a Catholic, but I don't think he went to confession that often.

Hitler was well into religion and used it regularly to justify his actions.

 

[Skashion]

Same sex marriages present no significant difficulties for those of us who are capable of entertaining the wild and wacky notion of equality for all.
Only god bothering bigots like you and pauldominic seem to have issues with the concept.

Indeed. I've never read it but apparently the opening gambit of Penn Jillette's God, No! is:

Would you kill your children if your God told you to? If the answer is no, you may be an atheist.

That's what it boils down to, this whole religion thing when it comes to the law. I've never met any Christian who thinks it's acceptable to stone disobedient children to death, or get women to marry their rapists. I don't know any Christian who refuses to eat shellfish either. These instructions feature in The Bible as much as the anti-homosexual stuff. So why the anti-gay stuff? These fuckers just don't have the balls to admit that they're bigots who choose which parts of The Bible which justifies their bigotry.

 

[SWP's back]

These fuckers just don't have the balls to admit that they're bigots who choose which parts of The Bible which justifies their bigotry.

Pretty much the crux of it.

 

[Shadz69]

No I don't "continually big him up" and I thought we had agreement on cover-ups and the church response to paedophilia.

Shall I repeat myself?

I can do if you require.

In terms of "any other organisation", will you be starting a campaign against the BBC for cover-ups and harbouring paedophiles?

I made the point about his fight against nazism and communism in response to NF.

That's a world away from child abuse as an issue for discussion.

If the BBC moved it's employees around and let them continue to abuse I feel the management would have a case to answer,would you not?I did'nt realise I could'nt mention his role in the abuse scandal while you try to tell us what a great man he was.

"If it was any other organisation it would have been shut down already".

The context is different but the principle is the same.

The abuse crimes were committed in roughly the same timeframe, but the BBC isn't a religious organisation.

Good news for them on that front in BM.

If you look at your quote above, you really should be starting a campaign to shut down the BBC for harbouring paedophiles and cover-ups.

The difference is that anyone launching a campaign to do that would look ridiculous.


I would have no problem with the authorities shutting down any organisation in which child abuse was endemic and tolerated and that goes for the church that aided and abetted known paedophiles.I don't see the point in your reply when you know many dangerous predators were clergy,not one off's here and there but abuse on a worldwide scale.Only when judiciary got involved was there any movement from the church and they made investigations difficult.
Your hero pope could have done something to protect children but instead gave carte blanche to these monsters and will probably be beatified soon.

 

[tonea2003]

still waiting for johnny or paul to comment on the pope's christmas address

It doesn't seem to me that the Pope is saying anything that the Catholic church and many others, secular and religious, haven't said before.
I accept this form of gender politics is currently unfashionable but that doesn't mean that same sex marriage doesn't present significant difficulties for society.

do you agree with the pope with what he said in his christmas address with regards to his unfashionable "gender politics"

 

[pauldominic]

Here you go Paul seeing as you struggle unless everything is done for you:

<Giant snip>

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2251728/Pope-Benedict-XVI-denounces-gay-marriage-Christmas-message.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ssage.html</a>

Ah the daily mail, the paragon of truth and accuracy.

Here is what he actually said: -

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2012/december/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20121221_auguri-curia_en.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/bened ... ia_en.html</a>

Personally I do not have any disagreement with him at all on this particular subject.

Perhaps cellarites would enjoy his real Christmas address.

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/urbi/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20121225_urbi_en.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/bened ... bi_en.html</a>

 

[SWP's back]

Ah good, homophobic bigotry is fine and dandy with you.

Atleast you're honest about it.