Afghanistan

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Not really. The Cathars lived a peaceful life in what is now south Western France happily practicing their religious beliefs bothering no one. The pope told the king of France that this was wrong and to sort it. He sent his armies and slaughtered them. I doubt the missionaries went into Africa with just rosary beads and a cross

Just briefly read up on the Cathars and tbf they had a point. The Old Testament god was an angry, horrible vindictive ****.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

To put your ego aside and cutting the losses for your country in a conflict that you can't win is courageous. Us and Nato didn't lose the war after signing the deal, it was already lost prior to it.

Nice one.

 

[BobKowalski]

What different outcome was possible if trump didn't sign the deal? Taliban controlled more than 50% of the territory, some say it was 60 to 70%, the afghan government was going no where in terms of progress or control of the country, US and Nato weren't gaining anything as Taliban were getting stronger and stronger, so what different outcome was possible? Trump realised that this war is nothing but a waste of tax payer's money and took the courageous decision to end it rather than trying to win it like Us tried to do under Bush and Obama or how Soviets and British thought they could do it when they tried to conquer Afghanistan

The alternatives were doubling down on military involvement for which there was zero appetite or trying to put governance and military structures in place and give them time to take root - but then they had been trying that for the last decade or so.

The US was left with doing a runner and they did a runner. Trump, Biden it matters little. This is a collective failure over nearly two decades.

 

[inbetween]

I don't understand though why you felt the need to contribute "all religion is the same", when you hear a Taliban militant express ambitions of conquering the world and forcing everyone to live their way of life?

He said that yesterday. You've drawn up a 300 year old comparison, for what purpose?

I'm not sure if you've noticed but the world's biggest problem at present as far as religious fundamentalism goes is Islamism. That Taliban militant is emblematic of that.

NATO spent 20 years trying to suppress these barbarians and they've just routed the entire army NATO spent building in a matter of weeks. Them and their ilk are a pretty big problem, today.

Let's face it, the Taliban are not going to be able to force their way of life upon the world. There are many places with extremists that think like this, ISIS was the most recent one but beyond terrorism ISIS were never a threat to our way of life. I agree with bombing ISIS because of their barbarity but the Taliban are not ISIS. We therefore have to ask why were we there and who are we to police the world?

I work with many ex-forces guys who have done a few tours of Afghanistan and Iraq. None of them knew why they were there and none of them ever got a sense of accomplishing anything. The one constant thing I hear though is it certainly solidified how much they hate our politicians for taking them there.

What has happened over the last week is the end game of over 15 years of having no idea what to do. Our only plan was to arm the affected countries army to continue to fight the people WE didn't like and in the end they let them walk right back in.

 

[JASR]

The alternatives were doubling down on military involvement for which there was zero appetite or trying to put governance and military structures in place and give them time to take root - but then they had been trying that for the last decade or so.

The US was left with doing a runner and they did a runner. Trump, Biden it matters little. This is a collective failure over nearly two decades.

I think it’s a bit longer than 20 years.
US policy since WWII has been to back/install right-wing (or at least US leaning) dictatorships in any countries possible. (Most of south and Central America, far to numerous African, Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc).
generally without thought for the ethnic, religious and historical make-up of the country.
Whilst supporting (or at least not punishing) the use of backhanders, nepotism and wholesale corruption.

it’s never going to last. And generally involves the country having no chance in progressing in a peaceful way, due to the entrenched distrust and disparate black/white views with no grey middle ground.

 

[BobKowalski]

To put your ego aside and cutting the losses for your country in a conflict that you can't win is courageous. Us and Nato didn't lose the war after signing the deal, it was already lost prior to it.

Less about ego, and more about having zero investment in the initial decision to go in and in the region. The ego was all about bringing American boys home.

Biden spoke against the troop build up under Obama, so he has less investment in the Afghanistan policy.

You‘re right in that the US policy had failed long before the peace deal or Biden’s decision to stick to the deal. The speed of collapse will have surprised and embarrassed the US but it also shows the futility of continuing.

 

[mexico1970]

I see that the "Important" people upped sticks and left before the gen pop could get out.

 

[west didsblue]

To put your ego aside and cutting the losses for your country in a conflict that you can't win is courageous. Us and Nato didn't lose the war after signing the deal, it was already lost prior to it.

His ego was front and centre with every decision he made. He promised to bring US troops home and he wanted to be able to say he’d done it. He didn’t give a shit about the consequences. He handed over Syria to Assad and the Russians for exactly the same reason, and in the process stabbed loyal US allies, the Kurds, in the back.

There will be long term consequences for all of Trump’s idiotic decisions that we don’t know yet as well as the short term consequences that we do.

 

[JASR]

Let's face it, the Taliban are not going to be able to force their way of life upon the world. There are many places with extremists that think like this, ISIS was the most recent one but beyond terrorism ISIS were never a threat to our way of life. I agree with bombing ISIS because of their barbarity but the Taliban are not ISIS. We therefore have to ask why were we there and who are we to police the world?

I work with many ex-forces guys who have done a few tours of Afghanistan and Iraq. None of them knew why they were there and none of them ever got a sense of accomplishing anything. The one constant thing I hear though is it certainly solidified how much they hate our politicians for taking them there.

What has happened over the last week is the end game of over 15 years of having no idea what to do. Our only plan was to arm the affected countries army to continue to fight the people WE didn't like and in the end they let them walk right back in.

ISIS ( et al) was a threat to our way of life.
Eg The concrete/steel barriers put up in London. The terrorist incidents.
If ISIS had managed to create and maintain their caliphate for a reasonable period of time, the ‘exporting’ of jihad would have been more widespread, and the impact greater. The possibility of the Caliphate expanding into the Arabian peninsula or even turkey would have alarmed the west. As would expansion further north into the ex soviet republics for the Russians.
Iran would probably be the saviour against expansion eastwards, as they have different ideologies- Sunni/Shia , or at least offered some resistance.

 

[Citizen in Pakistan]

The alternatives were doubling down on military involvement for which there was zero appetite or trying to put governance and military structures in place and give them time to take root - but then they had been trying that for the last decade or so.

The US was left with doing a runner and they did a runner. Trump, Biden it matters little. This is a collective failure over nearly two decades.

Doubling down wouldn't have helped, it would have simply delayed the inevitable while increasing the losses on the ground in process. Taliban would have simply bided their time like they did since the war started, this war could have been continued for another 2 decades and outcome still wouldn't change.

As for the governance and military structure, they did put that in place, US spent a trillion $ in Afghanistan but these structures are useless if they are headed by puppets, that's why it all felt apart so quickly

 

[west didsblue]

Doubling down wouldn't have helped, it would have simply delayed the inevitable while increasing the losses on the ground in process. Taliban would have simply bided their time like they did since the war started, this war could have been continued for another 2 decades and outcome still wouldn't change.

As for the governance and military structure, they did put that in place, US spent a trillion $ in Afghanistan but these structures are useless if they are headed by puppets, that's why it all felt apart so quickly

As long as the Taliban leadership could safely live in the tribal areas of your country while they were under threat in Afghanistan, there really was no hope of them ever being defeated. The government of Pakistan long ago came to an arrangement with the Taliban for reasons of expediency and survival. If the US could have brokered a similar situation in Afghanistan that would be the best that could be hoped for. By cutting out the Afghan government that became impossible and inevitably led to the Taliban taking over everything, and made the last 20 years a total waste of time, money and most importantly human lives.

 

[Phil Mitchell Foden]

Let's face it, the Taliban are not going to be able to force their way of life upon the world. There are many places with extremists that think like this, ISIS was the most recent one but beyond terrorism ISIS were never a threat to our way of life. I agree with bombing ISIS because of their barbarity but the Taliban are not ISIS. We therefore have to ask why were we there and who are we to police the world?

I work with many ex-forces guys who have done a few tours of Afghanistan and Iraq. None of them knew why they were there and none of them ever got a sense of accomplishing anything. The one constant thing I hear though is it certainly solidified how much they hate our politicians for taking them there.

What has happened over the last week is the end game of over 15 years of having no idea what to do. Our only plan was to arm the affected countries army to continue to fight the people we still didn't like and in the end they let them walk right back in.

Of course mate, the Taliban won't be able to succeed in that goal. My point was simply to highlight how bizarre it is for someone to hear a religious fundamentalist state those ambitions after conquering a country in the present day, and rather than expressing thoughts on how we stop people like that, instead feel a compulsion to draw comparisons with 800 years ago and share platitudes like "all religion is the same". It's truly odd.

The attempts to nation build in Afghanistan were hugely ambitious, but as we've since seen, largely futile. I made this point yesterday but at its very core Afghanistan is a feudal and tribal society. The vast majority of Afghans don't identify with the concept of a nation state, they identify along ethnic, regional and religious lines. It was naive to expect Pashtuns and Tajiks to identify with a unified Afghan national identity, when nationalism is a European concept they don't identify with. It's naiver still to expect people to have belief in the longevity of that project and put down their lives for it, for a Kabul government most Afghans are completely divorced from.

The Taliban are so successful because they have clear objectives and goals, and a distinct ideological goal. Plus, they benefit from Pakistan doing nothing whatsoever to stop them and allowing them to come and go as they please across their border.

There was so much sacrifice put into this project, and the truth is the chances of it being a long-term success were always negligible at best. What the world should be focused on now is how we stop the prevalence and spread of the ideological views of the likes of the Taliban.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Let's face it, the Taliban are not going to be able to force their way of life upon the world. There are many places with extremists that think like this, ISIS was the most recent one but beyond terrorism ISIS were never a threat to our way of life. I agree with bombing ISIS because of their barbarity but the Taliban are not ISIS. We therefore have to ask why were we there and who are we to police the world?

I work with many ex-forces guys who have done a few tours of Afghanistan and Iraq. None of them knew why they were there and none of them ever got a sense of accomplishing anything. The one constant thing I hear though is it certainly solidified how much they hate our politicians for taking them there.

What has happened over the last week is the end game of over 15 years of having no idea what to do. Our only plan was to arm the affected countries army to continue to fight the people WE didn't like and in the end they let them walk right back in.

ISiS never a threat? Give over.
A load of people died attending a Ariana Grande concert in Manchester would beg to differ.

 

[Phil Mitchell Foden]

ISiS never a threat? Give over.

I think he meant practically, besides terrorism. To us at least.

But they certainly threatened the way of life of millions of people across the Middle East whom they had direct contact with, and continue to today.

 

[Citizen in Pakistan]

As long as the Taliban leadership could safely live in the tribal areas of your country while they were under threat in Afghanistan, there really was no hope of them ever being defeated. The government of Pakistan long ago came to an arrangement with the Taliban for reasons of expediency and survival. If the US could have brokered a similar situation in Afghanistan that would be the best that could be hoped for. By cutting out the Afghan government that became impossible and inevitably led to the Taliban taking over everything, and made the last 20 years a total waste of time, money and most importantly human lives.

Lol so Pakistan is the reason that world's most advance military lost in Afghanistan? It's nothing more than an abusrd excuse for failing in Afghanistan, i guess when British empire lost in Afghanistan, it was also due to Pakistan right?

No other country has lost 80 k of its people for a war which we had nothing to do with, but for people like you that loss of life doesn't count as it's not yours.

So you can keep looking for reasons or blame trump and whatnot for the humilation but while you're at it, educate yourself on why Afghanistan is called a graveyard of empires.

Here is what the vets of Afghan war think about Afghanistan, fair to say they know more than you

 

[Phil Mitchell Foden]

Lol so Pakistan is the reason that world's most advance military lost in Afghanistan? It's nothing more than an abusrd excuse for failing in Afghanistan, i guess when British empire lost in Afghanistan, it was also due to Pakistan right?

No other country has lost 80 k of its people for a war which we had nothing to do with, but for people like you that loss of life doesn't count as it's not yours.

So you can keep looking for reasons or blame trump and whatnot for the humilation but while you're at it, educate yourself on why Afghanistan is called a graveyard of empires.

Here is what the vets of Afghan war think about Afghanistan, fair to say they know more than you

Lol at you trying to absolve Pakistan of any responsibility.

 

[metalblue]

I think he meant practically, besides terrorism. To us at least.

But they certainly threatened the way of life of millions of people across the Middle East whom they had direct contact with, and continue to today.

Terrorism is a threat to our way of life, that’s the whole point of it.

 

[west didsblue]

Lol so Pakistan is the reason that world's most advance military lost in Afghanistan? It's nothing more than an abusrd excuse for failing in Afghanistan, i guess when British empire lost in Afghanistan, it was also due to Pakistan right?

No other country has lost 80 k of its people for a war which we had nothing to do with, but for people like you that loss of life doesn't count as it's not yours.

So you can keep looking for reasons or blame trump and whatnot for the humilation but while you're at it, educate yourself on why Afghanistan is called a graveyard of empires.

Here is what the vets of Afghan war think about Afghanistan, fair to say they know more than you

No need to be so defensive. I'm not blaming Pakistan.

Pakistan did what they had to do to avoid the Taliban taking control there. The US should have recognised the reality of the situation rather than chasing an unachievable outcome. The root cause was GW Bush's response to 9/11, and his belief that overwhelming US power could solve any problem. Everything stems from that.

 

[Blue Mist]

I don't understand though why you felt the need to contribute "all religion is the same", when you hear a Taliban militant express ambitions of conquering the world and forcing everyone to live their way of life?

He said that yesterday. You've drawn up an 800 year old comparison, for what purpose?

I'm not sure if you've noticed but the world's biggest problem at present as far as religious fundamentalism goes is Islamism. That Taliban militant is emblematic of that.

NATO spent 20 years trying to suppress these barbarians and they've just routed the entire army NATO built in a matter of weeks. Them and their ilk are a pretty big problem, today.

All religion is the same, the minority that rule the religion force or coerce the gullible into believing it. The taliban leader is only expressing/doing what Catholics were doing 800 years ago and what the Crusades did to Muslims before that. The Lebanon is only a shit show because religion has been fighting there for centuries.
If these 'barbarians' are such a problem perhaps we should have learnt from Clive when he was wandering around India or the Soviets when they tried the same.
We went into the country to get Bin Laden (allegedly) unfortunately for the West he had fucked off to another country before the first troops arrived.
20 years of trying to force Western democracy on a country that doesn't want it smacks of coloniasm to me.

 

[Citizen in Pakistan]

Lol at you trying to absolve Pakistan of any responsibility.

Lol at you thinking Pakistan was the reason you couldn't win in Afghanistan