Anelka

[west didsblue]

What Anelka meant by it cannot be accurately inferred because the gesture is so ambiguous

For the second time, Anelka said he meant it as a gesture of support to his friend. It really couldn't be clearer. He has to be aware that his "friend" is a convicted racist and a friend and supporter of a notorious holocaust denier. I accept it doesn't make Anelka a racist or holocaust denier by association but that isn't the point here.

What are you pulling me up on? I haven't disagreed with that, It was in support of his mate against somebody, was it against purely the government or the government and (...), that is the ambiguity I was talking about. I guess you have seen David Baddiel video where he mumbles on, and a few other posters have at least approached the by association argument so I thought it was important to clarify.

You haven't clarified anything. You've done your best to confuse the issue. You appear to be trying to lump Anelka's gesture in with political gestures in general or specific campaigns.

There is no ambiguity. Anelka made a gesture that you have accepted is associated with hatred and intolerance and he should be punished for making that gesture. What he meant by it may not be totally clear to everyone (in spite of him saying it was in support of his antisemitic friend) but that is irrelevant.

 

[Rocket-footed kolarov]

Let's turn it round and imagine an English player had done the same as a gesture of support to an EDL leader, who had been convicted of a race-hate crime. Would you be quite so sanguine?

What Anelka meant by it cannot be accurately inferred because the gesture is so ambiguous, Dieudonne is most well known for his comedy routines, but he does have an increasing political involvement, so it is not quite the same as the EDL. Dieudonne is essentially Roy Chubby Brown with racism turned up to 11 and bigger audiences. In the same circumstances I hope I would.

I haven't been arguing for Dieudonne or Anelka to have right to preach hate, I have just been trying to tackle arguments that I find flawed and misleading. As I said earlier I don't think Censorship helps the discussion article below is in agreement, and I have already outlined the proper means for how I think Anelka should be punished, and there is already scope to do this.

http://www.theguardian.com/theobser...s-hollande-support-ban-comedian-france-debate

With respect, I think there is a danger that you getting bogged down and mired in semantics and interpretation here.
Any French person knows full well what this gesture means - it is unequivocally and inextricably linked to anti-Semitism.
This is not akin to you arguing that John Terry might not have been guilty of the racial abuse of Anton Ferdinand because we couldn't ascertain his underlying intent.
It really is of no consequence - he was making a racist gesture in support of a convicted racist.
We don't need to know any more.
I don't see any 'ambiguity' here.
If some bonkers Balkan fans give Seig Heil salutes on the terraces, then their clubs get punished accordingly, when UEFA can be arsed getting involved.
A player making a similar salute should have the book thrown at him, as should those despicable twats doing the same outside Ann Frank's house or Auschwitz.

If that is the case then he should be banned, you obviously know more about the meaning of Quenelle in France than I do. I honestly thought it was ambiguous, not in small part because a Jewish leader at one point said it wasn't antisemitic outside the context of use in front Jewish historical sites, of worship, or tragedies.

I never set out to deliberately confuse the issue and I thought it was appropriate to compare what Anelka did to the four fingered salute that was given in support of Mohammed Morsi. Because I thought that Anelka's use of the quenelle wasn't racist in the context it was used. If I was wrong then I hold my hands up, and if it was on the same lines as Josip Simunic, then a ban would be appropriate.

 

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

What Anelka meant by it cannot be accurately inferred because the gesture is so ambiguous, Dieudonne is most well known for his comedy routines, but he does have an increasing political involvement, so it is not quite the same as the EDL. Dieudonne is essentially Roy Chubby Brown with racism turned up to 11 and bigger audiences. In the same circumstances I hope I would.

I haven't been arguing for Dieudonne or Anelka to have right to preach hate, I have just been trying to tackle arguments that I find flawed and misleading. As I said earlier I don't think Censorship helps the discussion article below is in agreement, and I have already outlined the proper means for how I think Anelka should be punished, and there is already scope to do this.

http://www.theguardian.com/theobser...s-hollande-support-ban-comedian-france-debate

With respect, I think there is a danger that you getting bogged down and mired in semantics and interpretation here.
Any French person knows full well what this gesture means - it is unequivocally and inextricably linked to anti-Semitism.
This is not akin to you arguing that John Terry might not have been guilty of the racial abuse of Anton Ferdinand because we couldn't ascertain his underlying intent.
It really is of no consequence - he was making a racist gesture in support of a convicted racist.
We don't need to know any more.
I don't see any 'ambiguity' here.
If some bonkers Balkan fans give Seig Heil salutes on the terraces, then their clubs get punished accordingly, when UEFA can be arsed getting involved.
A player making a similar salute should have the book thrown at him, as should those despicable twats doing the same outside Ann Frank's house or Auschwitz.

If that is the case then he should be banned, you obviously know more about the meaning of Quenelle in France than I do. I honestly thought it was ambiguous, not in small part because a Jewish leader at one point said it wasn't antisemitic outside the context of use in front Jewish historical sites, of worship, or tragedies.

I never set out to deliberately confuse the issue and I thought it was appropriate to compare what Anelka did to the four fingered salute that was given in support of Mohammed Morsi. Because I thought that Anelka's use of the quenelle wasn't racist in the context it was used. If I was wrong then I hold my hands up, and if it was on the same lines as Josip Simunic, then a ban would be appropriate.

No worries mate - I only know the full significance of the gesture because I had the misfortune to listen to Mrs Fetlocks one morning after the story broke, and for once she had something interesting to say.
Being both on the left and French she explained it at length in simple terms to me, as she would do a small child with learning difficulties.
To me, politics has no place in sport, whatever the political hue, and I think that making an example of Anelka may at least show that such stupidity will not be tolerated in future, as well as making more folk aware of just what the gesture means, so that there can be no confusion if some basket case does it outside a synagogue, or White Hart Lane, or worse still a former concentration camp.

 

[Moriati]

French Jewish leader who questioned the FA's decision to take action.
"It looks a bit severe to me," Roger Cukierman, President of the Representative Council of French Jewish Institutions, said.
It "would be reprehensible only in the case where the gesture was made in front of a synagogue or a Holocaust memorial. When it is made in a place that has no Jewish specificity, it seems to me that it is a gesture of rebellion, a little anarchist, against the establishment. And that, it seems to me, doesn't deserve a severe sanction."
Dieudonne M'Bala M'Bala denies anti-Semitism claims - he is supposedly 'anti-zionist'.

Samir Nasri Official ✔ @SamNasri19
Its has absolutely nothing to do with being anti semitic or against jewish people. I apologise for causing any hurt to anyone who might have........
The pose in the picture i posted over 2 months ago symbolises being against the system.

Nasri has now come out to deny there was any anti-Semitic intent, insisting it is a protest against the establishment and apologised if any offence has been caused.

Clearly nothing at all to do with football.

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

Rich footballers and entertainers protesting against the establishment? What a strange world we live in.

 

[Chancy Termites]

If anyone ever puts their arms in a particular position aimed at offending straight white atheists like me, I guarantee that I won't be bothered in the slightest.

Please all feel free to devise an arm configuration to upset me - classic "teapot", quenelle with your palm facing out wards, mirror image of the quenelle, black power fist but with your thumb sticking out to the side, absolutely anything.

I can't speak for all straight white atheists of course, and I'm most interested to hear from other people of my persuasion about any arm-based stances that they don't like.

 

[sir baconface]

Weird how in 200 years non of this will be offensive to anyone.
.

Hopefully the FA will make a decision before then.

 

[lloydie]

Just watched Newsnight's piece on this.

Reporter, Steve Smith very aggressive and unprofessional from the off.

Le deuidonne. made him look like a proper cockwomble.

BBC shown up.