Another new Brexit thread

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Yes I am.

I empathise with that.

 

[journolud]

I think empathy is the ability to empathise with those who hold views other than your own - any **** can empathise with those that agree with them. That's not empathy, it's just agreement.

Empathy is nothing to do with agreeing with someone else’s opinion. It’s about understanding and sharing feelings.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Empathy is nothing to do with agreeing with someone else’s opinion. It’s about understanding and sharing feelings.

Tell that to Vic -he's the **** empathising with folk

 

[mcfc1632]

It's just a simple fact. The "less aligned" we want to be (and that seems to be the Johnson line), the harder it will be to get a free trade deal (the more aligned, the less to negotiate).

1. We have a comprehensive free trade deal.
2. We want a worse deal.
3. We possibly still think any worse deal will be one where we negotiate member benefits without member obligations (including financial).
4. If we did end up with a FTZ from Iceland to the Russian border, it will still be the Tories to blame, for putting us through three years of unnecessary hell.
5. If they'd gone for it the day after the referendum, we'd now be preparing for next year's general election having left the EU (and the Tory party divisions still raw as the Withdrawal Act would have been opposed by the ERG and only passed with Labour support).

5 isn't a fact. 1-2 are. 3-4 are opinion. 5 is wishful thinking. They'll be writing dystopian novels about this 50 years from now. What if we'd not been consumed with this madness?

Anyway, getting ready for our soiree with two of our EU friends. So for today's test of empathy, what do you Leavers say to a EU citizen who wants to stay in the UK (job, married to a Brit) and might have taken citizenship but now really doesn't want to be a Brtish subject because of what the country has become? (Particularly to my citizen of the world friend whose family's escape from the Holocaust has seen him living in France, Colombia, Australia and France again before moving here to marry.)

Before you answer, imagine one of your children is happily working in the EU.

FFS Vic - are you that obsessed on this that you are determined to spend the years to come in some never-ending spiral of misery and bitterness.

You cling to the Gove FTZ comment like it is some fragile strand that links you back to the world where everybody else (well at least most) are planning to get on with their lives and giving thoughts and hopes to how things may positively develop.

Your obsessions have become even more confused recently. When it is pointed out to you that Cameron and so many others were clear to all - including in writing - that Brexit = leaving the SM and CU - what is your response?? Yea - but yea - well the Leavers didn't say that did they!!!

FFS, your desperation is making you become ever more narrowly selective and frankly embarrassing. You are starting to come across as someone just babbling in a corner because they simply cannot move on - and your arguments are becoming more and more irrelevant.

Whilst the rest (well most) of the UK is looking to move forward into the next phase - you are stuck clinging to a small extract from pre-2016 referendum. FFS man - IT WAS A FUCKING CAMPAIGN - and one which was more of a mis-match that David and Goliath and all you can do is bang on about a specific soundbite

Seriously mate - you need to move the fuck on - if only for your health and well-being. You won't listen to me as I am 'from the dark side' - hopefully there is someone that you respect that can have a quiet word and get you to move on.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Although I can't empathise with Vic I can certainly sympathise with him.

You can almost touch his pain...

Must have been pretty galling making those 50,000 phone calls and then seeing Catweasel getting his arse handed to him. In a parallel universe I may have been inclined to not giggle.

 

[blueinsa]

Always knew he was a wrong un.....

https://news.sky.com/story/prominent-lawyer-boasts-of-killing-fox-with-baseball-bat-11895442

 

[BlueHammer85]

Well you may not think that the post fits you that well, but it was not aimed specifically at you

I am still pretty confident that it fits a lot of people and organisations

Hindsight is 20/20 they say - how many people and groups that are anti-Brexit are now wishing, with hindsight, that the political parties had decided to go for a vote of no confidence, appoint a consensus leader and acted to get a 2nd vote held and Brexit stopped rather than concede to Johnson's request for a GE

I suggest a lot feel that way.

BTW - the description 'butt-hurt' - was also not aimed at you, but I would suggest that there are a lot of people - including some on here - that amply demonstrate the description to be entirely accurate

It’s quite sad how happy you seem to be at the thought that anyone who disagreed with Brexit is now really ‘hurt’ ; as has always been the case for you it’s all about ‘winning’ - most people have a life outside of here and are happy to have a break from Brexit news now the election has been done.

 

[mcfc1632]

It’s quite sad how happy you seem to be at the thought that anyone who disagreed with Brexit is now really ‘hurt’ ; as has always been the case for you it’s all about ‘winning’ - most people have a life outside of here and are happy to have a break from Brexit news now the election has been done.

And yet - here you are - weird that

And proper wrong - IMO of course

From your post - you have not been on here at all/much since the GE - yet you make this post? Strange

If you had you would have seen the number of posts to which I am referring. The very many where - unlike what you suggest - Remainers are most certainly not having a break

My post was in reply to a number of other posters each of us discussing the extent to which Corbyn and others bear responsibility for the fact that the opportunity to stop Brexit was not taken.

That you choose to simply reply to mine only with this withering assault marks out very clearly your capability for being objective and 'balanced'

Forgive me if I do not lose sleep

 

[BlueHammer85]

And yet - here you are - weird that

And proper wrong - IMO of course

From your post - you have not been on here at all/much since the GE - yet you make this post? Strange

If you had you would have seen the number of posts to which I am referring. The very many where - unlike what you suggest - Remainers are most certainly not having a break

My post was in reply to a number of other posters each of us discussing the extent to which Corbyn and others bear responsibility for the fact that the opportunity to stop Brexit was not taken.

That you choose to simply reply to mine only with this withering assault marks out very clearly your capability for being objective and 'balanced'

Forgive me if I do not lose sleep

yes. I’ve not felt the need to since the election result , I’ve accepted Brexit is the mantra now and it’s out of everyone’s hands except Boris and his team - good luck to them and I hope we achieve some amazing trade deals which was promised.

I’ve not caught up with all the thread, but it’s constant posts from you banging on about how ‘delicious’ it is to see remainers ‘butt hurt’ and how Brexit is the fault of Corbyn, Gina Miller etc.

whether I’m reading it wrong or not, you ultimately come across as pretty smug and obsessed about telling everyone how right you was.

 

[Vic]

Two things

1. The "empathy" stuff started a long time ago with Leavers (maybe just a Leaver) saying Remainers didn't empathise with why Leavers voted Leave. Well, maybe that's just lazy use of the English language (or psychological jargon), but there is no way I can really empathise with Leavers and not change mind about why they are wrong. Perhaps if everybody could empathise, it would have been 52% Remain... It's silly really in this context - given the rhetoric of "enemies" and wartime comparisons, would it have helped to empathise with what motivated Nazis?

2. Nobody did rise to the challenge of saying what Leave supporters were suffering under the EU that needed empathy.

Make it three.

3. No-one seems to want to show any empathy to the losers. Some relish the pain. Enjoy it but don't bleat about my showing lack of empathy and say that's why Remain lost.

 

[journolud]

And yet - here you are - weird that

And proper wrong - IMO of course

From your post - you have not been on here at all/much since the GE - yet you make this post? Strange

If you had you would have seen the number of posts to which I am referring. The very many where - unlike what you suggest - Remainers are most certainly not having a break

My post was in reply to a number of other posters each of us discussing the extent to which Corbyn and others bear responsibility for the fact that the opportunity to stop Brexit was not taken.

That you choose to simply reply to mine only with this withering assault marks out very clearly your capability for being objective and 'balanced'

Forgive me if I do not lose sleep

Hardly a withering assault, unless you are easily withered. Somehow I don’t think so though, you seem pretty stiff and erect to me.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Two things

1. The "empathy" stuff started a long time ago with Leavers (maybe just a Leaver) saying Remainers didn't empathise with why Leavers voted Leave. Well, maybe that's just lazy use of the English language (or psychological jargon), but there is no way I can really empathise with Leavers and not change mind about why they are wrong. Perhaps if everybody could empathise, it would have been 52% Remain... It's silly really in this context - given the rhetoric of "enemies" and wartime comparisons, would it have helped to empathise with what motivated Nazis?

2. Nobody did rise to the challenge of saying what Leave supporters were suffering under the EU that needed empathy.

Make it three.

3. No-one seems to want to show any empathy to the losers. Some relish the pain. Enjoy it but don't bleat about my showing lack of empathy and say that's why Remain lost.

You used the word empathy, Vic - don’t have a moan if it’s consequently deployed against you - and as I expect you’re well aware, I voted to Remain, think leaving is a mistake, but also believe it would be a bigger mistake not to follow the outcome of the referendum, so the presumptions in your post are misconceived.

 

[mcfc1632]

Hardly a withering assault, unless you are easily withered. Somehow I don’t think so though, you seem pretty stiff and erect to me.

TBF - you have seen through my faux-sensitivity

No - I am not really a shy and reserved wallflower

Putting that to one side though - some of these Remainers are really inconsistent and to a large degree hypocritical

The poster that I am replying to here - if you go back a few months ago - was not too shy to post no end of sarcastic and demeaning posts to put down the views and hopes of Leavers.

It speaks volumes of how shallow a lot of them are - that back in September or so they could be all high-handed - and then fast-forward a few months and it is all squawking in 'righteous indignation'.

Bless - has something happened in the meantime to shake their confidence?

A more cynical person than me could read the situation as being one of :

......it has been fine for the Remainers to take the piss out of and outright insult Leavers for over 3 years...…. - but heaven forbid there should be any word in the other direction......

Who are the sensitive ones again?

Proper hypocritical IMO

 

[mcfc1632]

In recent days there have been a number of articles like this one:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50928295

where we see senior EU figures raising their concerns over Johnson's move to place a hard-stop on the transition period

You might be forgiven for thinking that their planning assumption was that they would play hard-ball on this subject and force the UK into the initial extension and then further (never-ending) extensions as no FTA was reached.

After the May/Robbins experience you can forgive their confidence.

Hopefully we are seeing a shift in the professionalism and capability of the negotiation approaches and teams towards the UK

 

[Vic]

In recent days there have been a number of articles like this one:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50928295

where we see senior EU figures raising their concerns over Johnson's move to place a hard-stop on the transition period

You might be forgiven for thinking that their planning assumption was that they would play hard-ball on this subject and force the UK into the initial extension and then further (never-ending) extensions as no FTA was reached/

After the May/Robbins experience you can forgive their confidence

Hopefully we are seeing a shift in the professionalism and capability of the negotiation approaches and teams towards the UK

What was that about Let it Go?

Johnson legislates to say the transition will not be extended, the EU says it might have to be, and you think they're caving in?

If you want to keep it going, here's John Crace's summing up of last week's vote. Replacing the old divisions of leave and remain with the new divisions of losers and winners.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/20/to-johnson-the-brexit-spoils-and-the-amnesia

 

[mat]

In recent days there have been a number of articles like this one:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50928295

where we see senior EU figures raising their concerns over Johnson's move to place a hard-stop on the transition period

You might be forgiven for thinking that their planning assumption was that they would play hard-ball on this subject and force the UK into the initial extension and then further (never-ending) extensions as no FTA was reached/

After the May/Robbins experience you can forgive their confidence

Hopefully we are seeing a shift in the professionalism and capability of the negotiation approaches and teams towards the UK

I'd like to think so. Although I suspect token negotiations on our side then a full on media campaign backed by Johnson demonizing the EU meaning this time next year were days away from a no deal.

 

[mcfc1632]

I'd like to think so. Although I suspect token negotiations on our side then a full on media campaign backed by Johnson demonizing the EU meaning this time next year were days away from a no deal.

That is indeed possible - but for me that would be preferable to signing an agreement that is entirely of the EU's design - as per their expectation when dealing with May/Robbins.

We need an agreement that allows the UK to determine and implement the policies and regulations that are aimed to support our economy and not as directed and sanctioned by the EU.

If we do end up in that situation that you describe then that will be because the EU have determined that they are willing to take the consequences that a no-deal will have across the EU - of course even more so in the UK. Personally I doubt that will happen - I doubt the EU leaders will be tolerated to make those decisions on behalf of key states.

At least the steps by Johnson signal the actions that will give us a chance of a decent outcome

 

[mcfc1632]

What was that about Let it Go?

Johnson legislates to say the transition will not be extended, the EU says it might have to be, and you think they're caving in?

If you want to keep it going, here's John Crace's summing up of last week's vote. Replacing the old divisions of leave and remain with the new divisions of losers and winners.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/20/to-johnson-the-brexit-spoils-and-the-amnesia

You are confused

Let it go relates to not clinging to the past - as you do with your tattered comfort blankets from the campaign.

I am looking to the future and the embarking upon the negotiations of the FTA - and I have enormous relief that a difficult path is being taken - one that sees us negotiate with the EU - as opposed to the docile acceptance of May/Robbins.

Fuck - her/their betrayal of Brexit has become ever more obvious. It has not been/is not possible to remove all the elements of poison from May's WA - see:
https://conservativewoman.co.uk/tcws-brexit-year-september-the-secret-surrender-of-our-defence/
as an example.

Johnson has needed to bring an end to this stage rather than reopen the full renegotiation of the WA. The EU wants to have stages that are represented by more delays and more extensions - they do not like the threat of that not being an easy option.

 

[Vic]

That is indeed possible - but for me that would be preferable to signing and agreement that is entirely of the EU's design - as per their expectation when dealing with May/Robbins.

We need an agreement that allows the UK to determine and implement the policies and regulations that are aimed to support our economy and not as directed and sanctioned by the EU.

If we do end up in that situation that you describe then that will be because the EU have determined that they are willing to take the consequences that a no-deal will have across the EU - of course even more so in the UK. Personally I doubt that will happen - I doubt the EU leaders will be tolerated to make those decisions on behalf of key states.

At least the steps by Johnson signal the actions that will give us a chance of a decent outcome

I'm not sure who you mean by EU leaders and whether you've forgotten that EU leaders will not be making decisions on behalf of key states. Every member state has to approve a trade deal.

I'm afraid that cakes and unicorns will still be UK policy as we head for No Deal. The only hope is that the new "professional" negotiators, unlike the previous amateurs, are realistic about what a crap hand we have.

 

[Ardwick Green Blue]

I'm not sure who you mean by EU leaders and whether you've forgotten that EU leaders will not be making decisions on behalf of key states. Every member state has to approve a trade deal.

I'm afraid that cakes and unicorns will still be UK policy as we head for No Deal. The only hope is that the new "professional" negotiators, unlike the previous amateurs, are realistic about what a crap hand we have.

In the memorable words of Bob Marley:

Don’t worry
‘Bout a t’ing
Cos every little t’ing
Gonna be alright....