Another new Brexit thread

[KS55]

I would not be bothered by Scottish independence. England, where I live gains only a little from the union. If the Scots want it, ok by me, but I doubt an indyref will turn out 'yes'.
As for Ireland, I am in favour of unification but I doubt NI unionists are! The republic still believe in the old prayer "Lord gives us a united Ireland, but not yet." Too risky.
Federalisation of E, S, W, NI, is my preferred solution. Devolution, just too weak.

 

[Metal Biker]

We will be punished , simple as that. A shot across the bows to stop any other country from leaving. We are about to enter a very dark period in British history which will begin with an immediate call for independence by Scotland and followed by reunification of Ireland. Possibly the deepest longest recession ever experienced and further cuts due to austerity.

Why would our European friends want to "punish" one of it's friends?

We're seeking a trade deal remember, just as other independent nations like Canada and Japan have done. We pretty much already use all their EU standards on products so no time will be wasted renegotiating that. An independent UK trading with Europe and seeking other trade deals in the Southern Hemisphere and the Americas, not politicially or financially tied to any particular group, that's all that we sought.

You must really fear the EU if you genuinely believe they want to "punish" us for exacting our right to leave their bloc.

 

[Metal Biker]

I bet you are the type of person who still has a makeshift nuclear bunker , stocked with provisions in your garden, just in case.

Plastered with "Funded by the EU" stickers, no doubt.

 

[west didsblue]

It won't be a case of being punished.
We just won't get what our economy needs which is the same access to the single market as before for goods and services.
Only EEA members get that and we won't be one.

 

[Len Rum]

Why would our European friends want to "punish" one of it's friends?

We're seeking a trade deal remember, just as other independent nations like Canada and Japan have done. We pretty much already use all their EU standards on products so no time will be wasted renegotiating that. An independent UK trading with Europe and seeking other trade deals in the Southern Hemisphere and the Americas, not politicially or financially tied to any particular group, that's all that we sought.

You must really fear the EU if you genuinely believe they want to "punish" us for exacting our right to leave their bloc.

Total lack of understanding. Where have you been the last three years?
Canada and Japan have arms length deals which basically only removes price tariffs ( but not non price barriers) on certain products. Because they are 'distant' markets the impact is much less on the EU than if they were to agree tariff reductions or removal with a close neighbour ( the UK) without level playing field agreements.
We might comply with EU standards at the moment but when we leave (post deal) we won't comply with future EU standards ( new and modified), hence non tariff barriers will apply or we will unable to supply into that market.
There will also be an impact on Services which you haven't mentioned.
The EU won't want to 'punish' us they will simply want to get the best deal possible for themselves whilst retaining the integrity of their single market (which effectively means limiting the UK benefits of any deal).
The 'punishment' narrative however will be taken up by the media to justify the economic fallout from any future deal and the lies told pre referendum.
Interesting that you are already beginning to echo this message.

 

[Metal Biker]

Total lack of understanding. Where have you been the last three years?
Canada and Japan have arms length deals which basically only removes price tariffs ( but not non price barriers) on certain products. Because they are 'distant' markets the impact is much less on the EU than if they were to agree tariff reductions or removal with a close neighbour ( the UK) without level playing field agreements.
We might comply with EU standards at the moment but when we leave (post deal) we won't comply with future EU standards ( new and modified), hence non tariff barriers will apply or we will unable to supply into that market.
There will also be an impact on Services which you haven't mentioned.
The EU won't want to 'punish' us they will simply want to get the best deal possible for themselves whilst retaining the integrity of their single market (which effectively means limiting the UK benefits of any deal).
The 'punishment' narrative however will be taken up by the media to justify the economic fallout from any future deal and the lies told pre referendum.
Interesting that you are already beginning to echo this message.

Europe will not want to alienate it's largest and most important trade partner, now will it.

Interesting that you are now echoing the issues we have had with our relationship with the EU. The EU is all about themselves, it cares nothing for the wider world.

 

[Len Rum]

Europe will not want to alienate it's largest and most important trade partner, now will it.
Interesting that you are now echoing the issues we have had with our relationship with the EU. The EU is all about themselves, it cares nothing for the wider world.

You've now changed tack by bringing into the argument your political view of the balance of power between the two sides ( with which I disagree).
However your original post wasn't based on politics of the power dynamic between the two sides.
You argued that a trade deal would be easy because of trade, economic and technical issues (I.e. not political).
This is not the case and you failed to challenge any of the points I raised, you simply switched the argument.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Total lack of understanding. Where have you been the last three years?
Canada and Japan have arms length deals which basically only removes price tariffs ( but not non price barriers) on certain products. Because they are 'distant' markets the impact is much less on the EU than if they were to agree tariff reductions or removal with a close neighbour ( the UK) without level playing field agreements.
We might comply with EU standards at the moment but when we leave (post deal) we won't comply with future EU standards ( new and modified), hence non tariff barriers will apply or we will unable to supply into that market.
There will also be an impact on Services which you haven't mentioned.
The EU won't want to 'punish' us they will simply want to get the best deal possible for themselves whilst retaining the integrity of their single market (which effectively means limiting the UK benefits of any deal).
The 'punishment' narrative however will be taken up by the media to justify the economic fallout from any future deal and the lies told pre referendum.
Interesting that you are already beginning to echo this message.

len I don’t know how many times.....

we won’t comply with new or future eu standards.??

who is “we “ and how do you know.

again and simply, If a company in the uk wants to sell products or services in any foreign territory be it Germany, Australia or the US then that company in the uk has to comply with the laws and standards in relation to the country it is selling at the time. It’s up to the uk company if it chooses to comply then off you go, if it doesn’t choose to comply then there will be a problem.

if we were not leaving the eu that same company in the uk could continue to choose to sell its products in Germany it will still have to comply with future eu standards and laws, if it didn’t then it could not sell its products.

you seem to have some misunderstanding that when we leave the eu a company in the uk cannot sell products into countries in the eu and that simply isn’t the case.

 

[blueinsa]

len I don’t know how many times.....

we won’t comply with new or future eu standards.??

who is “we “ and how do you know.

again and simply, If a company in the uk wants to sell products or services in any foreign territory be it Germany, Australia or the US then that company in the uk has to comply with the laws and standards in relation to the country it is selling at the time. It’s up to the uk company if it chooses to comply then off you go, if it doesn’t choose to comply then there will be a problem.

if we were not leaving the eu that same company in the uk could continue to choose to sell products in Germany if it will still have to comply with future eu standards and laws, if it didn’t then it could not sell its products.

you seem to have some misunderstanding that when we leave the eu a company in the uk cannot sell products into countries in the eu and that simply isn’t the case.

Its this belief that everything we make or produce come the first of Feb will be very different from what it was on the 31st Jan.

Basically its rubbish and not the reality.

Its actually last ditch attempts at trying to be proven right all along.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Its this belief that everything we make or produce come the first of Feb will be very different from what it was on the 31st Jan.

Basically its rubbish and not the reality.

Its actually last ditch attempts at trying to be proven right all along.

Its as simple as this

Uk still in the eu

any company selling products in the eu needs to comply with the laws and standards of the eu FROM TIME TO TIME

UK not in the eu

any company selling products in the eu needs to comply with the laws and standards of the eu FROM TIME TO TIME.

 

[blueinsa]

Its as simple as this

Uk still in the eu

any company selling products in the eu needs to comply with the laws and standards of the eu FROM TIME TO TIME

UK not in the eu

any company selling products in the eu needs to comply with the laws and standards of the eu FROM TIME TO TIME.

Goods sold and shipped around the world because standards are pretty much the same anyway because manufacturers and producers know they have to be or they wont sell anything.

 

[KS55]

Its as simple as this

Uk still in the eu

any company selling products in the eu needs to comply with the laws and standards of the eu FROM TIME TO TIME

UK not in the eu

any company selling products in the eu needs to comply with the laws and standards of the eu FROM TIME TO TIME.

There is a complication. There is a long list of countries which have applied to WTO for a declaration that such standards cannot be applied in such a way that they amount to the EU exporting its laws beyond its own borders. This will not be solved in the short term because the WTO has some internal disagreements which are preventing the hearing of these cases.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

There is a complication. There is a long list of countries which have applied to WTO for a declaration that such standards cannot be applied in such a way that they amount to the EU exporting its laws beyond its own borders. This will not be solved in the short term because the WTO has some internal disagreements which are preventing the hearing of these cases.

its not exporting its laws. It’s enforcing its own laws within its own borders which the eu , or any country, is entitled to do.

the eu is perfectly entitled to ensure products sold within the eu comply with its only health & safety laws for example. If that was not a basic premise what would be the point of having any standards if they could just be ignored?

 

[Metal Biker]

You've now changed tack by bringing into the argument your political view of the balance of power between the two sides ( with which I disagree).
However your original post wasn't based on politics of the power dynamic between the two sides.
You argued that a trade deal would be easy because of trade, economic and technical issues (I.e. not political).
This is not the case and you failed to challenge any of the points I raised, you simply switched the argument.

I've kept to the same argument I always have.

It's you who keeps changing the argument to something else. Where in the post do I say "A deal will be easy" in those exact words? You've interpreted it that way, in fact I made no mention whatsoever about a deals "simplicity".
I was stating how can it be so, that a lovely, cuddly EU, who are our friends, would want to punish the UK, one of it's longest, cuddliest friends, over such a benign matter such as leaving which every member is entitled to enact?
It's almost as if some people are now saying that the EU aren't our friends after all, if they now seek to "punish" us!

TL;DR I was taking the piss out of those who used to say "the EU are our friends..." and are now saying "the EU will seek to punish us!" True "friends" don't punish one another, they seek a compromise to their differences.

 

[Len Rum]

len I don’t know how many times.....

we won’t comply with new or future eu standards.??

who is “we “ and how do you know.

again and simply, If a company in the uk wants to sell products or services in any foreign territory be it Germany, Australia or the US then that company in the uk has to comply with the laws and standards in relation to the country it is selling at the time. It’s up to the uk company if it chooses to comply then off you go, if it doesn’t choose to comply then there will be a problem.

if we were not leaving the eu that same company in the uk could continue to choose to sell its products in Germany it will still have to comply with future eu standards and laws, if it didn’t then it could not sell its products.

you seem to have some misunderstanding that when we leave the eu a company in the uk cannot sell products into countries in the eu and that simply isn’t the case.

Let me explain mate.
I don't have a misunderstanding.
If there are new or modified EU standards it is of course true that companies can agree to implement them.
That will mean checks at the border and additional paperwork because there will be no automatic flow through of goods as is the case now, also companies will have to agree to EU regs (obviously) and be subject to EU (not UK) law as regards that supply. There may also be pre supply checks ( one off maybe or more?).
So yes it's possible, I never said it wasn't.
It makes trade more difficult and costly particularly ( price tariffs maybe and non tariff barriers definitely) when goods move from one EU country to another and back again.

 

[Metal Biker]

Let me explain mate.
I don't have a misunderstanding.
If there are new or modified EU standards it is of course true that companies can agree to implement them.
That will mean checks at the border and additional paperwork because there will be no automatic flow through of goods as is the case now, also companies will have to agree to EU regs (obviously) and be subject to EU (not UK) law as regards that supply. There may also be pre supply checks ( one off maybe or more?).
So yes it's possible, I never said it wasn't.
It makes trade more difficult and costly particularly ( price tariffs maybe and non tariff barriers definitely) when goods move from one EU country to another and back again.

"EU Country?"

Don't you mean "European" country? Because if they're both in the EU, they're both trading under the same terms. Unless you can give examples where that's not the case, because I don't know of any EU member countries that have an issue trading with one another in the way you've just described.

 

[Len Rum]

"EU Country?"

Don't you mean "European" country? Because if they're both in the EU, they're both trading under the same terms. Unless you can give examples where that's not the case, because I don't know of any EU member countries that have an issue trading with one another in the way you've just described.

No I don't mean European.
When goods move from one EU country to another there are no duties or non tariff barriers.
If goods move from a European country (which is not a member of the EU*), then there will be price and/or non tariff barriers to trade unless the two countries agree otherwise.
* we can discuss member of single market or CU if you wish.

 

[Metal Biker]

No I don't mean European.
When goods move from one EU country to another there are no duties or non tariff barriers.
If goods move from a European country (which is not a member of the EU*), then there will be price and/or non tariff barriers to trade unless the two countries agree otherwise.
* we can discuss member of single market or CU if you wish.

There's no such thing as an "EU country" though, but there are "EU member" countries.
Important to remember that the EU hasn't yet reached that level of political involvement...yet.

"You're an EU country!"

"Nooo we're a country that is a member of the EU". You see that sort of thinking is what put a lot of people off continued membership, as if nations were something "owned" by the EU.

One of the reasons i'm glad to be leaving it.

 

[joe123]

There's no such thing as an "EU country" though, but there are "EU member" countries.
Important to remember that the EU hasn't yet reached that level of political involvement...yet.

"You're an EU country!"

"Nooo we're a country that is a member of the EU". You see that sort of thinking is what put a lot of people off continued membership, as if nations were something "owned" by the EU.

One of the reasons i'm glad to be leaving it.

There are better reasons for leaving than semantics mate.

 

[Metal Biker]

There are better reasons for leaving than semantics mate.

Didn't say it was the semantics that was the issue. It was the mindset of others.

And i'm not your mate. :)