Another new Brexit thread

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mcfc1632 said:
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If a Remain sycophantic UK government had decided that it did not like our 2016 referendum answer and went to work with the EU to take some actions that meant that things could be dressed up and following an 'improved communications campaign' the question could be presented again to get the right answer - would those committed to Brexit feel that integrity had been demonstrated?

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That had been Johnson's idea...
 
mcfc1632 said:
And all because the Irish government and the opposition at the time were total EU sycophants - nobody amongst the Irish political elite were looking to do anything other than 'sort the inconvenient problem out'
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By this do you mean they were supporters of Ireland being in the EU project as a long term benefit to the country and its citizens? Follow up question. Did they sort out this ‘inconvenient problem’ by listening to the voters concerns and addressing them accordingly? If so I’m (wait for it)...outraged all over again.
 
BobKowalski said:
Think you will find I was the accused not the accuser in this instance. I am of stoat heart though and fear not your badgering as we beaver our way to the truth and ferret out the misconceptions that plague us.
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I beg your pardon. You were indeed on the other end of that. Foxed here with trying to sort out a broken seat.
 
Seems like every week the Barnier Brexit roadshow pops up in a new location, pressing the flesh and passing on the word of...well Barnier.

 
mcfc1632 said:
And all because the Irish government and the opposition at the time were total EU sycophants - nobody amongst the Irish political elite were looking to do anything other than 'sort the inconvenient problem out'
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You're not wrong, however, nobody among the Irish political elite were looking to get out of the EU and neither were the Irish public.
I voted down both the Nice and Lisbon treaties 2001 and 2008. The 24th and 28th Amendments to our constitutions followed and later votes were carried by the public vote.
I won't bore anyone with the content of the amendments, they are easily googled, but there were significant changes made particularly with Lisbon to cause a 20% swing in the second vote.

The negative votes at the time were as much to do with disapproval of the government, a protest vote if you please. Some say Brexit was not dissimilar. I''l leave you to argue the toss on that one.
If you had asked the question of the public. Ok do you want to leave the EU, so? I suspect the turnaround would have been the same.
Edit for clarity; the turnaround in Ireland would have been the same. Not talking about Brexit.
 
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mancity2012_eamo said:
You're not wrong, however, nobody among the Irish political elite were looking to get out of the EU and neither were the Irish public.
I voted down both the Nice and Lisbon treaties 2001 and 2008. The 24th and 28th Amendments to our constitutions followed and later votes were carried by the public vote.
I won't bore anyone with the content of the amendments, they are easily googled, but there were significant changes made particularly with Lisbon to cause a 20% swing in the second vote.

The negative votes at the time were as much to do with disapproval of the government, a protest vote if you please. Some say Brexit was not dissimilar. I''l leave you to argue the toss on that one.
If you had asked the question of the public. Ok do you want to leave the EU, so? I suspect the turnaround would have been the same.
Edit for clarity; the turnaround in Ireland would have been the same. Not talking about Brexit.
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To be fair - I was not at any time suggesting that there was any consideration in Ireland of leaving the EU.

I was just confirming that @KS55 was - setting aside disingenuous pedantry - essentially correct in his earlier post.

For me the entire genesis, development and management of the Lisbon Treaty is a prime example of the deceit (as I see it - other may see it as clever management) by the EU in moving the membership towards ever closer integration.

Having failed to establish an EU Constitution by bringing forward a treaty with that name - they took it away and brought it through the back door - less in your face and rename the Lisbon Treaty.

As Giscard d'Estaing said of the Lisbon Treaty:

The EU's new treaty is the same as the rejected constitution - only the format has been changed to avoid referendums, says Valery Giscard d'Estaing, architect of the constitution.

In an open letter published in Le Monde and a few other European newspapers over the weekend, the former French president seeks to clarify the difference between former draft constitution - which was shelved after French and Dutch voters rejected the text in 2005 - and the new Lisbon Treaty which EU leaders agreed earlier this month and

"The Treaty of Lisbon is thus a catalogue of amendments. It is unpenetrable for the public. In terms of content, the proposed institutional reforms are all to be found in the Treaty of Lisbon. They have merely been ordered differently and split up between previous treaties."
 
mcfc1632 said:
To be fair - I was not at any time suggesting that there was any consideration in Ireland of leaving the EU.

I was just confirming that @KS55 was - setting aside disingenuous pedantry - essentially correct in his earlier post.

For me the entire genesis, development and management of the Lisbon Treaty is a prime example of the deceit (as I see it - other may see it as clever management) by the EU in moving the membership towards ever closer integration.

Having failed to establish an EU Constitution by bringing forward a treaty with that name - they took it away and brought it through the back door - less in your face and rename the Lisbon Treaty.
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I know you weren’t suggesting that and it had been voted down elsewhere prior to referendum in Ireland.
I was just clarifying that the Irish public in my opinion were voting against the arrogance of their own government rather than the EU itself.
They thought they would just give a recommendation without any real discussion or explanation.
It was as much a protest vote as anything else.

There are similarities to events around Brexit but probably more dissimilarities than to make it useful as a comparison.
 
So the ROI vote was a protest against the government and establishment.
Shame we’ll never find out if Brexit was the same.
Anyway we’re stuck with it. We need to make the best of it and not let those arseholes who go on about a true Brexit dictate the terms of our departure, and instead do what’s best for the country, not what’s best for a few ideologues and ultra rich with a vested interest.
 
west didsblue said:
So the ROI vote was a protest against the government and establishment.
Shame we’ll never find out if Brexit was the same.
Anyway we’re stuck with it. We need to make the best of it and not let those arseholes who go on about a true Brexit dictate the terms of our departure, and instead do what’s best for the country, not what’s best for a few ideologues and ultra rich with a vested interest.
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In my opinion......
Yes.
 
bluethrunthru said:
Its all going swimmingly

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Financial Times
@FT

London loses top spot as global finance hub



London loses top spot as global finance hub
Survey of executives rates New York number one
ft.com
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Wow - for that news to match your doom-mongering it should be saying that we have been overtaken by Frankfurt, Dublin and Paris

Does it say that?

Or is it emphasised again how far behind they are and how, in comparison, the UK remains the European global financial hub:

"While there has been great concern that Brexit will prompt an exodus of jobs and assets from the City to other European financial centres like Frankfurt, Paris and Dublin, the survey suggests that none of these cities is forecast to rival New York or London."

So once again you shoot yourself in the foot
 
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