Another new Brexit thread

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Vic said:
Fish.

Not that I expect any engagement on the topic (or why farmers are cross) but I did link to a short clip (from 21 minutes):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000j4vj/politics-england-10052020

and summed up part of the problem with these posts





I did also say this:
"And (I'm really not sure how serious this is) there's evidence of fish moving north because of global warming. What if 'our fish' emigrate to Icelandic waters?"

I did get one sensible reply, "Given that there are increasing reports of more exotic species from warmer waters turning up off our cost that sort of movement is highly likely" but I forgot to point out that to get into UK waters from the south they'll be coming through EU waters...
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The Scottish fleet in nowhere the size it used to be and much of it now concentrated on inshore fishing for shellfish the majority of which we export to the EU. I think we still import the majority of the fish that we eat from EU, Iceland and Fairisle. There is no easy answer to it, it’s not as if the U.K. fleet is equipped to take on significant additional Quota. I personally think whatever solution is agreed between the EU and U.K, our fishing industry will continue to contract as old fishermen die off and their kids don’t replace them. Overfishing and the concentration of quotas into small numbers of powerful families and companies has exacerbated a terminal decline.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
The Scottish fleet in nowhere the size it used to be and much of it now concentrated on inshore fishing for shellfish the majority of which we export to the EU. I think we still import the majority of the fish that we eat from EU, Iceland and Fairisle. There is no easy answer to it, it’s not as if the U.K. fleet is equipped to take on significant additional Quota. I personally think whatever solution is agreed between the EU and U.K, our fishing industry will continue to contract as old fishermen die off and their kids don’t replace them. Overfishing and the concentration of quotas into small numbers of powerful families and companies has exacerbated a terminal decline.
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Worse. Deep sea fishing may continue to decline (as it has since well before the CFP) but a no deal Brexit may ruin the profitable and (arguably) sustainable inshore fisheries and fishfarms by losing us our export markets (by tariffs, and queues at Dover including the lorries taking Scottish langoustines to French markets).
 
Vic said:
Worse. Deep sea fishing may continue to decline (as it has since well before the CFP) but a no deal Brexit may ruin the profitable and (arguably) sustainable inshore fisheries and fishfarms by losing us our export markets (by tariffs, and queues at Dover including the lorries taking Scottish langoustines to French markets).
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Absolutely. Salmon farms deserve to die though. They are environmentally toxic and have all but wiped out wild salmon and sea trout.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Yet another ill thought out part of the brexit 'plan'. How on earth are we going to ensure FoM for fish after brexit? Huge shoals will be queuing at the entrance to the English Channel (la manche) and we have not even considered the cross border infrastructure. At present fish can swim right the way round Ireland unimpeded, but after brexit they will have to either turn around off the coast of Belfast, or we will have to have a manned border in the Irish sea. None of this has been considered.
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I'm really not sure if that's entirely intended as a pisstake but

FoM for fish exports after Brexit is exactly the problem - e.g. Danish fishermen may not catch "our" fish but what they catch will be cheaper when they get it to port.

And who is going to patrol and enforce our 200 mile limit border? (The 200 miles EEZ is a relatively modern idea. The cod wars started when Iceland extended its limit from three to four miles.) Maybe satellites can tell you where boats are but then what? How many miles long is it? Well over a thousand?
 
Saddleworth2 said:
From the Guardian this morning. Seems entirely reasonable.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...oris-johnson-an-alibi-for-a-calamitous-brexit
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Decent article but I take issue with the headline. Covid provides the perfect excuse to bury any brexit bad news. The clever thing would be to simultaneously blame any covid related failure on Brexit and excuse it by telling the population 'you wanted this'. That's what I'd do - 5-10 years of get out of jail free right there.
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
Decent article but I take issue with the headline. Covid provides the perfect excuse to bury any brexit bad news. The clever thing would be to simultaneously blame any covid related failure on Brexit and excuse it by telling the population 'you wanted this'. That's what I'd do - 5-10 years of get out of jail free right there.
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It will be interesting to see how it is spun if we do get a no deal. As an optimistic fool, I am still hoping for common sense to prevail and a deal to be made. If we can get Premier League football returning, it should not be above the wit of man to quarantine both teams and lock them in some chateau and only let them out when a deal is done. Blaming continued lack of progress on COVID wont wash.
 
west didsblue said:
Won’t be reasonable to the Brexit cheerleaders because it shoots down the myth that we have a viable walk away option, whether we have the political will to use it or not.

It will be dismissed because it’s in the Guardian.
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I think we have the political will and also believe ultimately the EU will be willing to call our bluff. It will hurt us more than it hurts them. Maybe Sunak will grow a pair. He is the only one I think has a vestige of character and talent.
 
Kazzydeyna said:
Picture the scene, immigration desk, at port of entry to the UK before leaving.

Immigrant: "please tell me why you are making it harder for me, an African doctor, to come and live in your country and serve the NHS than you are for those Europeans over in *that* queue. Those people have told you they have no job to go to, no skills to offer that you don't already have in abundance, and they also do not speak your language. Why are you letting them in without question but making it so hard for me?"

Immigration officer: "that's obvious sir. It's because I'm not a racist"


Millions of Brexit voters voted for equality for all. Millions of remain voters voted for the status quo.

I think I can work out why.
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This point you have about the eu being 'racist' is nonsense unless you label every other country with immigration controls racist as well, and that's including the UK.
Pretty much everyone on here that voted leave has been telling us for years that it 'wasn't about immigration' so to claim it was a vote based on 'equality' stretches the imagination to snapping point.
No doubt you'll bring up some 'class' angle if you reply so before you do i'll ask what you think of the new immigration rules our government is imp[lementing?
 
Kazzydeyna said:
Come on now Vic old chum, surely you're not suggesting that anyone on any side of this debate would stoop to calling their opponents racist?

I cannot imagine that would ever happen. And if it did, even once, or maybe a few hundred times over the last few years, I'm sure our erstwhile mods would reprimand them for coarsening the debate. If not the mods, then Ric would for sure.

Have some faith in bluemoon mate. It's a forum for all sorts.

And I'm not suggesting a remainer would want to keep out an African doctor, merely pointing out that FOM makes it very difficult to treat the African doctor as fairly as we treat the Italian barista, or the lovely polish girl who serves the busy middle class their sandwiches in Pret.

You see, in my world view, all men are equal. And it ends there. I don't believe that some men are more equal than others, and certainly not based on the passport they were lucky enough to be born entitled to.

Obviously I accept that this makes me a racist neo fascist. I shall have to go to reeducation classes where I shall learn that some people should have an easier time immigrating to the UK based on their passport, not their skillset. When I have accepted this fact, then and only then will I dare to call myself a non-racist. Like you.
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The eu didn't make the uk immigration laws for Africa or any other country outside the eu.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
I think we have the political will and also believe ultimately the EU will be willing to call our bluff. It will hurt us more than it hurts them. Maybe Sunak will grow a pair. He is the only one I think has a vestige of character and talent.
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We're all entitled to our opinion, and I respect yours, but think the opposite
will happen and we'll get a FTA.
 
BobKowalski said:
Your problem is a lack of comprehension not racism. You can’t even grasp that it seems.

Holding a passport from a European country in itself confers no extra rights. A Russian passport is a European passport and your average Russian would have more difficulty entering the UK than Wayne. From next year a British passport will confer no extra rights as they will have been removed. The key is not European. Russia and the UK are European. They key is contracted rights and reciprocated rights.

So being European means nothing in itself. We are European and have opted out of the contract that gave us those extra rights. Your average Frenchman still retains these extra contractual rights. The only difference is the number of countries he can exercise these rights in is now 29 and not 30. We on the other hand went from 30 to 1, being the RoI. And Wayne, poor bastard, is still stuck in customs and it is no easier for him to get in the UK than it was before. It seems our sacrifice was in vain.

Countries that are close tend to have more liberal immigration between them because it is practical to do so, especially if it is a land border. FoM is simply one contractual manifestation of this. Another is more relaxed VISA requirements. If we negotiate relaxed or no VISA requirements with Spain is this racist if we do not do the same with an African or Asian country? No. It is simply putting in place a contractual and reciprocal agreement between two countries in close proximity. Australia and New Zealand have FoM between them because of location and cultural ties. African countries are establishing their version of the EU with FoM, Single Market and common currency. Are they being racist by not including the UK? No. Again shared borders, regionalisation, pooling resources including labour are the driving forces.

The elimination of borders has to start somewhere and it will only start with countries in proximity to each other. We ourselves, a union of nations, are an example of that. Establish enough blocs with FoM then you are on the way to making it more worldwide. Regressing back to borders is just that. Regression. Trying to justify this regression as ‘fighting racism’ is profoundly ignorant and has the opposite effect. It feeds racism. It promotes differences.
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Bang on.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
I think we have the political will and also believe ultimately the EU will be willing to call our bluff. It will hurt us more than it hurts them. Maybe Sunak will grow a pair. He is the only one I think has a vestige of character and talent.
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I think you’re right. I think we have a government that are quite prepared to throw the baby out with the bath water just to make a few quid for their backers even if it fucks 90% of the population.
 
Vic said:
Anyone understand this? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...s-win-trade-deal-break-deadlock-Brussels.html

Johnson offers to break Brexit deadlock on a deal by accepting tariffs that we'd have to accept if there is no deal?
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It means yet more lies told by Johnson come back to haunt him - I wonder at what point people who voted Brexit and voted Tory will decide its not the Brexit they voted for and is damaging themselves and their families finances and health ..............I think never. I think Brexiteers would rather see the country in bits and their own prospects and those of their kids badly harmed than even consider they might be wrong never mind actually admit it.
 
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