Another new Brexit thread

[kevin horlocks wand]

The figure for Labour remainers keeps growing and growing every month.

Sooner or later it'll reach "110% of Labour voters voted remain!"

it can be , unfortunately the labour vote isn’t growing much even with Calvin Karmar so it’s meaningless anyway .

 

[Vic]

No, you see, a 2nd referendum would be based on a public vote, not what Labour thinks, and as we saw from all the polls, the number of people who supported leave hadn't actually changed at all.

So you'd be left having to find a further 2m extra voters for remain to win a 2nd ref, from a population you'd all spent the better part of 3 1/2 years insulting. And we all know how THAT would have turned out, don't we. You're forgetting the number of leave voters who wouldn't vote Tory or Labour, but would vote leave again in a 2nd referendum.

You're really not honest, are you? Virtually all polls from the day after the referendum to today showed Remain would have won. They might have been wrong of course, but the only thing Leavers could agree on was not finding out.

 

[Metal Biker]

it can be , unfortunately the labour vote isn’t growing much so it’s meaningless anyway .

True, the more and more traditional Labour voters leaves the party, the larger the "remain" element becomes.

 

[Vic]

ha ha keep up the bullshit . Labour supporters are 80% remain????? Where in your head.

you never ever listen.

labour supporters are predominately in the north of England who predominately voted leave.

you will never face facts or try to listen or understand your core voters. That’s why you know the red wall fell because labour voters preferred a brexit over labour so voted tory.

you would think labour would have learnt its lesson but no, it’s back to becoming the party of cause, Middle Eastern politics, identity politics and all things in metro london.

workington man has been forgotten , well until 4 years time when they will be back up north pretending that they care about their core support.

Most of the referendum analysis reckoned voters identifying as Labour voted roughly two to one Remain/Leave. Given the loss of Leave voters in the 2019 GE, probably 80% of those still voting Labour were definitely for Remain.

 

[Vic]

True, the more and more traditional Labour voters leaves the party, the larger the "remain" element becomes.

Good grief. I agree with this. We'll get them back when Austerity Two hits.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Most of the referendum analysis reckoned voters identifying as Labour voted roughly two to one Remain/Leave. Given the loss of Leave voters in the 2019 GE, probably 80% of those still voting Labour were definitely for Remain.

vic it’s your problem not mine.

I don’t give a shit if you all want to continue to ignore your core voter base .

keep doing it and it will be the same outcome again.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Most of the referendum analysis reckoned voters identifying as Labour voted roughly two to one Remain/Leave. Given the loss of Leave voters in the 2019 GE, probably 80% of those still voting Labour were definitely for Remain.

Correct, plenty of evidence backs this up.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

True, the more and more traditional Labour voters leaves the party, the larger the "remain" element becomes.

Leavers assume that there is a hardcore block of brexiteer voters out there and unless you pander to them you will never win an election. Well most polls have support for brexit falling and at sub 50% of the population and lets see what leaving does to that support going forward. We all know its going to be monumentally shit so that will have some impact you would think. Boris won with get brexit done at the last GE - the next election will be about how to mitigate the damage.

 

[joe123]

vic it’s your problem not mine.

I don’t give a shit if you all want to continue to ignore your core voter base .

keep doing it and it will be the same outcome again.

Certain elements of the traditional core thought they were better served being out of Europe and voting Tory. That's their prerogative and will reap whatever the consequences are. Its 4 years to another election, so Labour will have the choice of saying the Tories completely fucked this up, we're better off going back in. Or, it's not that bad and can campaign on issues other than Europe that would appeal to that voter. My money is on people realising Brexit wasn't actually the panacea they thought it would be and we're better served rejoining, but Starmer has got plenty of time to see how the chips fall and pick the best course at that time.

 

[Vic]

vic it’s your problem not mine.

I don’t give a shit if you all want to continue to ignore your core voter base .

keep doing it and it will be the same outcome again.

Seriously, put the Brexit blinkers away. The majority of Labour voters in nearly every constituency (including those we lost in the GE) voted Remain. How is that not the "core vote"? We've already established earlier today that if Leave hadn't been liars and had offrered the soft Brexit they promised (FTZ from Iceland to Russia), it would have sailed through Parliament.

 

[Metal Biker]

Leavers assume that there is a hardcore block of brexiteer voters out there and unless you pander to them you will never win an election. Well most polls have support for brexit falling and at sub 50% of the population and lets see what leaving does to that support going forward. We all know its going to be monumentally shit so that will have some impact you would think. Boris won with get brexit done at the last GE - the next election will be about how to mitigate the damage.

Not at all.

A "brexiteer" is such a loose term it can mean anyone with a varying degree of support for the UK leaving the EU. This can include people who voted remain, respected the result and support the democratic process. That would techincally make them a "Brexiteer" as they support the UK leaving the EU, even though in the referendum they voted remain.

Most polls have been wrong about the subject. They were wrong on the run up to the 2019 election, they were wrong on the run up to the referendum. So long as commentators like you continue to label everyone who supports leaving as a "brexiteer", you'l continue to lose their respect and thus the arguments and the elections.

But I can see you'll never learn, You haven't after 4 years, why would you start now?

 

[Vic]

Leavers assume that there is a hardcore block of brexiteer voters out there and unless you pander to them you will never win an election. Well most polls have support for brexit falling and at sub 50% of the population and lets see what leaving does to that support going forward. We all know its going to be monumentally shit so that will have some impact you would think. Boris won with get brexit done at the last GE - the next election will be about how to mitigate the damage.

Every holiday abroad (extra costs, queues in the "non-EU" line, extra driving licence needed) will be a sinking-in moment. No care worker to wipe grandad's arse will be another. Fish supper with herring instead of cod could be another.

 

[Metal Biker]

Certain elements of the traditional core thought they were better served being out of Europe and voting Tory. That's their prerogative and will reap whatever the consequences are. Its 4 years to another election, so Labour will have the choice of saying the Tories completely fucked this up, we're better off going back in. Or, it's not that bad and can campaign on issues other than Europe that would appeal to that voter. My money is on people realising Brexit wasn't actually the panacea they thought it would be and we're better served rejoining, but Starmer has got plenty of time to see how the chips fall and pick the best course at that time.

If we rejoin the UK will need to:

Adopt Schengen
Adopt the Euro
Join the Eurozone

That is a much harder sell, even for many remainers. In fact that was one of the arguments made at the time; that if we left and had to go back in, it would be worse, so it was better off with keeping the arrangement we had. Plus if things get SO bad as is being claimed that we are in forced to be in a position to rejoin, we won't be able to as our economy wouldn't pass the EU requirements for membership.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Got to love labour Remainers desperate to frame brexit as a left vs right issue and blame the GE on corbyn. Both the left and right are equally split on Brexit which is why it is such political kryptonite. The liberal left are certainly pro remain, but the working class left tend to be in favour of liberal left economics but socially quite conservative and patriotic - just as likely to wave a union jack as Tommy Robinson. It is this section of the left that defected to tory in the GE.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Certain elements of the traditional core thought they were better served being out of Europe and voting Tory. That's their prerogative and will reap whatever the consequences are. Its 4 years to another election, so Labour will have the choice of saying the Tories completely fucked this up, we're better off going back in. Or, it's not that bad and can campaign on issues other than Europe that would appeal to that voter. My money is on people realising Brexit wasn't actually the panacea they thought it would be and we're better served rejoining, but Starmer has got plenty of time to see how the chips fall and pick the best course at that time.

Agree with this. Starmer is depriving Johnson of the opportunity to bluster on only subject he does well talking about. He will keep Labour out of the fight as long as possible for two reasons.

1, All the focus will be on the Tories to get out of the corner they have backed themselves into. If they go no deal then it all falls apart - if they go soft brexit then the head bangers outside the party will go nuts and it remains to be seen if the ones inside the party can be brought on board.

2, Labour can do practically nothing to influence how this goes and it clearly wont go well. So long term Labour need to be seen as neither having supported nor hindered the process (the blame game is a big factor in brexit). Next election there will be a lot pressure to adopt a rejoin policy straight off but it might be too soon for that, re entering the SM and CU without full membership is possibly more realistic, either way they will avoid that decision as long as possible.

 

[Metal Biker]

Got to love labour Remainers desperate to frame brexit as a left vs right issue and blame the GE on corbyn. Both the left and right are equally split on Brexit which is why it is such political kryptonite. The liberal left are certainly pro remain, but the working class left tend to be in favour of liberal left economics but socially quite conservative and patriotic - just as likely to wave a union jack as Tommy Robinson. It is this section of the left that defected to tory in the GE.

Labour leavers don't exist, remember. ;)

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Not at all.

A "brexiteer" is such a loose term it can mean anyone with a varying degree of support for the UK leaving the EU. This can include people who voted remain, respected the result and support the democratic process. That would techincally make them a "Brexiteer" as they support the UK leaving the EU, even though in the referendum they voted remain.

Most polls have been wrong about the subject. They were wrong on the run up to the 2019 election, they were wrong on the run up to the referendum. So long as commentators like you continue to label everyone who supports leaving as a "brexiteer", you'l continue to lose their respect and thus the arguments and the elections.

But I can see you'll never learn, You haven't after 4 years, why would you start now?

Built on fictitious worries about an Eu Army ... we had a veto and it would've required a referendum
Built on fictitious worries about Turkey joining the Eu ... we had a veto
Built on fictitious worries about the UK having to join the Euro ... we had a veto.. and a requirement to have a referendum
Built on 'leaving the Eu would stop illegal immigrants' .... it wont (but you were wanting to stop them however you could)
Built on any changes to the Eu treaties .... We had a veto
Built on changes to the tax issues ... we had a veto but voted for them anyway... it would've required a referendum nevertheless
Built on fictitious worries about being forced into a borderless Schengen area ... we had a veto and it would've required a referendum nevertheless
Built on fictitious worries about losing our rebate .... we had a veto and a requirement for a referendum


The Eu worries are living in your head mate ..... worries nothing more substantial than that ....stuff you concocted in your head .... cos of forriners

 

[joe123]

If we rejoin the UK will need to:

Adopt Schengen
Adopt the Euro
Join the Eurozone

That is a much harder sell, even for many remainers. In fact that was one of the arguments made at the time; that if we left and had to go back in, it would be worse, so it was better off with keeping the arrangement we had. Plus if things get SO bad as is being claimed that we are in forced to be in a position to rejoin, we won't be able to as our economy wouldn't pass the EU requirements for membership.

I doubt our economy would get to the state of not cutting EU mustard, but I do agree adopting the Euro and Schengen are a much tougher sell, if they were absolute requirements. My instinct is both sides might be happy to go back to how it was as it was mutually better, but obvs that all remains to be seen if and when the time comes. We'll obvs have a better idea come the end of the year and we know what deal we have or haven't got.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Got to love labour Remainers desperate to frame brexit as a left vs right issue and blame the GE on corbyn. Both the left and right are equally split on Brexit which is why it is such political kryptonite. The liberal left are certainly pro remain, but the working class left tend to be in favour of liberal left economics but socially quite conservative and patriotic - just as likely to wave a union jack as Tommy Robinson. It is this section of the left that defected to tory in the GE.

The idea that supporting brexit is patriotic is populist bollocks. When you look at Trump supporters do you think of them as more patriotic than Dems or do you think they are gullible fools?

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Certain elements of the traditional core thought they were better served being out of Europe and voting Tory. That's their prerogative and will reap whatever the consequences are. Its 4 years to another election, so Labour will have the choice of saying the Tories completely fucked this up, we're better off going back in. Or, it's not that bad and can campaign on issues other than Europe that would appeal to that voter. My money is on people realising Brexit wasn't actually the panacea they thought it would be and we're better served rejoining, but Starmer has got plenty of time to see how the chips fall and pick the best course at that time.

that’s true .