Another new Brexit thread

[BlueAnorak]

Here's a Panorama episode from 1975 in which Tony Benn puts forward the anti EU case that is the very same as that which holds true now for people like me. For balance he's debating with Roy Jenkins who puts the pro EU case. It's a long watch, but notable that they were both Labour MP's - at once dispelling the myth that it was just the right that are Eurosceptic, and that it is just the tories that are divided over Europe. Also notable is the quality of the debate from both sides compared to the twitter size debates and politicians we have now.

Tony Benn wasnt wrong as to UK manufacturing migrating to the Rhur. In fact he was right about quite a few things.

 

[mcfc1632]

Oh I understand the 'narrative'.
If they haven't done so already, lots of nameplate businesses will be springing up across the EU and in London. Wasted money for lawyers and auditors but that's about it.

Just to clarify...……….

My point about asking if people 'understood the narrative' - was not aimed at you - or indeed any Leaver;-)

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Tony Benn wasnt wrong as to UK manufacturing migrating to the Rhur. In fact he was right about quite a few things.

I don't think he was wrong about anything, and time has proven him correct. His warnings about federalism and the danger for democracy from the commission as the executive rather than the parliament also ring true.

 

[BobKowalski]

Tony Benn wasnt wrong as to UK manufacturing migrating to the Rhur. In fact he was right about quite a few things.

Tony Benn wanted a ‘closed and protected economy’. It was essentially a paternal view. An echo of the USSR and it’s ‘closed’ economy. It’s a romantic idea but an outdated and failed model. If you throttle outside investment, ideas, trade and the flow of people and adopt a protectionist industrial strategy the model eventually breaks down.

The conflict in ideas back in the seventies was between Benn who believed you could plan the economy to be efficient, rely on the UK internal market and look after workers and those who believed Britain had been left behind and needed to be back at the heart of Europe, politically and economically. It was a fear of being relegated to insignificance that was behind much of the drive to get EEC membership.

Looking ahead It seems more likely that the EU states will become more integrated following the pandemic with the next big challenges being the North African States and how to manage that external EU border and obviously recovery from the pandemic. Brexit is going to be a more localised UK concern.

 

[west didsblue]

The use of deferred taxation in the form of long term investment grants would have a big effect as well.

Indeed, the use of aditional tariff income (predicted to be £12.8bn) + non-returned contributions (£9bn) should be used en mass to reduce business taxation and introduce mass investment grants (as deferred taxation) as well. This will more than offset business increases in EU tariffs (predicted to be £5.6bn) and increased costs. An additional £16.2bn per annum in total revenue.
It should be noted that UK corporation tax in total in 2018/19 was £51.15bn so business could pay a 1/3 less tax.
I would prefer most of it in investment grants, as additional business tax savings will result in minimal investment in the future of the UK.They will simply be exported as profits to the lowest tax regieme.

Those tariff predictions you quote look more like the tariffs that would be applied to imports and exports assuming trade is not impacted by the application of the tariffs. A real prediction would need to take into account the shift in trade which is almost guaranteed to reduce. You also failed to point out that the additional income will come largely out of the pockets of the UK consumer due to the importers increasing prices to recover the tariff outlay.

 

[BlueAnorak]

Those tariff predictions you quote look more like the tariffs that would be applied to imports and exports assuming trade is not impacted by the application of the tariffs. A real prediction would need to take into account the shift in trade which is almost guaranteed to reduce. You also failed to point out that the additional income will come largely out of the pockets of the UK consumer due to the importers increasing prices to recover the tariff outlay.

You're making a huge assumption there

 

[mcfc1632]

I don't think he was wrong about anything, and time has proven him correct. His warnings about federalism and the danger for democracy from the commission as the executive rather than the parliament also ring true.

Yep

And even with all the evidence of decades there are so many still in denial

As it is hardly possible to deny the truth with any credibility - some change their narrative to being that - because of an incompetent current PM and government which cannot be trusted to manage anything - the UK needs to be controlled by the benevolent EU shepherd

What bollocks - such control will not just be for the term of a parliament - it will last generations, cause so much damage to the UK, lead to such levels of integration and have generated so much dependence on the EU that effectively the UK will have surrendered all sovereignty and never be able Leave the EU at a future point - it is difficult enough to Leave now!!

So, for me, all these comments about the current government not being competent so we should not Leave the EU in anything but a BRINO model - just demonstrates the increasingly obvious paucity of the Remainer arguments - both previous and current

 

[west didsblue]

You're making a huge assumption there

Really?
Why don’t you show us where you got your predictions from to prove to me that I’m wrong.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Australia has no trade deal with the EU

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Interesting report from America, the Americans think Britain is more
influential than Germany and France combined.
Oh, and this was commissioned by Germans.

https://upcomingworldnews.com/europ...rtunate-fact-for-brussels-brexit-vindication/

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1...l-countries-poll-France-Germany-latest-update