Another new Brexit thread

[Chippy_boy]

Yeah great. I look forward to living in a country that has licence to limit opposition parties, lock up people without trial and restrict freedom of the press. On second thoughts no. I’d like to be a European type country with a European type democracy, freedom of the press and reasonably regulated.

I don't think any of your concerns are even slightly relevant. Not even vaguely.

 

[Chris in London]

From a perspective of interrest in linguistics and understanding their growth, i actually feel motivated to leave it as it is and perhaps "let it grow" as a somewhat distinct Belgian-English dialect that i would like to coin "Blinglish".

Blingo would be better

 

[Metal Biker]

Of course he would be outraged.

They all would be.

As would I as a democrat.

People some to ignore the fact that in 1972 the public weren't asked of we wanted to join the EEC/Common Market, the Government just did it.
Labour, rightly, said "this isn't right, the public must be consulted." So we held a referendum to see if the public wanted to remain in the EEC.

By referendum, we said we did. Some people weren't happy, but democracy won through and we remained in the EEC.

40 years later and many people (many of whom who voted the first time) have changed their minds. We demanded to be consulted again and were for many years ignored. Eventually we hold another consultation ia referendum and it shows, yeah, we have changed our minds. Being in the EEC has changed, to the point it's not even called the EEC anymore. So by rights, we must therefore leave the EU.

If we change our minds again, we can hold another consultation to see if we want to rejoin the EU. It's fair, it's democratic, it's respecting the electorate. What went wrong?

 

[Ban-jani]

The result has been ignored. MP's have said "no", in contrast to every proposal put forward, to leaving the EU since that day.

This is completely disingenuous.

The vast majority of MP’s have voted for at least one of the indicative votes that was a type of Brexit.

The vast majority of MP’s would accept at least one form of Brexit.

The issue is that the referendum was so vague and wasn’t legally binding, so it allows MP’s and the public to disagree on what Brexit should look like.

Several prominent leave figures, including JRM, said prior to the referendum that it would be a good idea to have a two stage process, so once we vote to leave, the terms in which we do could be put back to the public once agreed.

 

[joe123]

You see the problem there is if it does return a result of 53% to 47% to remain this time, for example, remainers will now see that as the END of the issue.

But then what's stopping ANY leave voter saying "well, we "won" the last one and we didn't leave. Why should we "remain" because your side "won" this one?" Voting on whether we remain or not should not be the focus. We have to leave the EU and then, if others wish, campaign to rejoin if that is what people want. I would be furious if we stayed in the EU by a referendum to overturn the result of the 2016 referendum, as it never reached conclusion. I would be accepting if we had a referendum to rejoin and that won.

I do get what you're saying, but would you want to leave on May's deal then rejoin? I honestly don't think it's stretching the principles of democracy to say this is what we've come up with, shall we pull the trigger? I know the problem with that is that it's been such a shitshow, no MP is gonna want to put their name to a deal, or put their hands up and say, "look, we've royally fucked this up and this is the best we can do". But it's not undemocratic, and it's not as bad as the no deal scenario (IMO)

 

[blueinsa]

People some to ignore the fact that in 1972 the public weren't asked of we wanted to join the EEC/Common Market, the Government just did it.
Labour, rightly, said "this isn't right, the public must be consulted." So we held a referendum to see if the public wanted to remain in the EEC.

By referendum, we said we did. Some people weren't happy, but democracy won through and we remained in the EEC.

40 years later and many people (many of whom who voted the first time) have changed their minds. We demanded to be consulted again and were for many years ignored. Eventually we hold another consultation ia referendum and it shows, yeah, we have changed our minds. Being in the EEC has changed, to the point it's not even called the EEC anymore. So by rights, we must therefore leave the EU.

If we change our minds again, we can hold another consultation to see if we want to rejoin the EU. It's fair, it's democratic, it's respecting the electorate. What went wrong?

What went wrong?

I liken it to school sports day where no one is allowed to lose anymore and everyone has to be a winner.

Politics is fucked in this country now and debate will be replaced with a court case.

 

[Chippy_boy]

CB, I’m amazed you’re a Remainer, I really am. We’ve hitched our wagon to the high tax, high regulation EU model, that accounts for 15% of global trade, and can only exist behind the wall of protection offered to inefficient business practices by a protectionist Custom Union, that is the very opposite of Conservative principles of low tax, low regulation, wealth creation which benefits everyone in society as the economy grows and we have more money to invest in public services. Brexit is about opening up to the vibrant and growing economies around the world, removing obstacles to trading with these economies and becoming a truly global country with no restrictions on those who have a product or service to sell and are willing to offer the same opportunities to our businesses, sounds a little bit like Singapore does it not?

I've always said a couple of things:

1. That what made me come down on the side of Remain was that I did not believe the pain of getting out, was worth it for the possible upsides which might or might not materialise.

2. They if we were to leave, then a right wing Tory government with yes, Singapore like policies, would be the only way we could end up benefitting. And that leaving under anything like a socialist Labour government, would be an absolute fucking disaster with Labour implementing a pretty much PERFECT set of policies if fucking up our economy was your prime objective: Increase corporation tax, increase employment protections and limit flexibility, interfere with company structures and pay, make strikes more likely, worry investors about punitive measures down the line, etc. In short, discouraging investment in the UK, rather than encouraging it.

My concern was that although Labour would very likely not win a forthcoming GE, nevertheless they have dragged the political centre of gravity to the left, and that there was little prospect of the sort of Tory government needed to deregulate and reduce taxes to the extent necessary.

So I could see no prospect of the gains being realised and yet cast iron certainty of the pain of leaving.

 

[Metal Biker]

This is completely disingenuous.

The vast majority of MP’s have voted for at least one of the indicative votes that was a type of Brexit.

The vast majority of MP’s would accept at least one form of Brexit.

The issue is that the referendum was so vague and wasn’t legally binding, so it allows MP’s and the public to disagree on what Brexit should look like.

Several prominent leave figures, including JRM, said prior to the referendum that it would be a good idea to have a two stage process, so once we vote to leave, the terms in which we do could be put back to the public once agreed.

The main way to leave, the WA, was rejected by the vast majority of MP's. Both had different reasons for doing so, but they still rejected the leave proposal agreed with the EU, only to offer no alternative or agreement on how we should leave, and are STILL proclaiming we should remain on the back of that decision. So it's not "completely disingenuous" at all. Tone it down with the hyperbole, please.

 

[FlemishDuck]

If we change our minds again, we can hold another consultation to see if we want to rejoin the EU. It's fair, it's democratic, it's respecting the electorate. What went wrong?

The good friday agreement. Well depends on what you see as going wrong, but in between that time the Uk have signed up to an obligaton to never allow a hard border again in Ireland which was easier to make when te UK was still part of the EU. It's quite obvious that the largest strugling block for Brexit is the ramifications for what regards a border in Ireland and the desired need for a sollution.

 

[Metal Biker]

What went wrong?

I liken it to school sports day where no one is allowed to lose anymore and everyone has to be a winner.

Politics is fucked in this country now and debate will be replaced with a court case.

I can't wait to see the result of a GE being debated in the Supreme Court on the basis that the current Government has failed to implement it's manifesto pledges.

 

[BobKowalski]

I don't think any of your concerns are even slightly relevant. Not even vaguely.

We are already a low tax, lightly regulated country. The latter being one of the reasons we got screwed harder than most in the financial crash of ‘08. But we are not Singapore. We don’t have a sovereign wealth fund controlling most of our GDP or an economy based on an immigrant workforce of around 30% and with Brexit we are unlikely to be rooting for it either.

Cutting taxes even further is not going to turn us into Singapore. Just as electing Corbyn will not turn us into Venezuela. We are are a highly developed integrated European economy not some rogue off shore state with aspirations to be pirates.

 

[Metal Biker]

The good friday agreement. Well depends on what you see as going wrong, but in between that time the Uk have signed up to an obligaton to never allow a hard border again in Ireland which was easier to make when te UK was still part of the EU. It's quite obvious that the largest strugling block for Brexit is the ramifications for what regards a border in Ireland and the desired need for a sollution.

Only May's red lines made that an issue.

 

[FlemishDuck]

Only May's red lines made that an issue.

A no-deal would have turned it into an issue aswell, realisticly speaking?

May did have a WA to present to parliament..

But yeah, there is probably room beyond those red lines.

 

[blueinsa]

I can't wait to see the result of a GE being debated in the Supreme Court on the basis that the current Government has failed to implement it's manifesto pledges.

That comes after everyone cheated on social media ad campaigns and dodgy money was spent and people told lies and i could go on and on but you get the picture of what politics is now in the UK.

 

[waspish]

If we went out on wto it WILL be a disaster but has anyone said how long this disaster will last?

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

That comes after everyone cheated on social media ad campaigns and dodgy money was spent and people told lies and i could go on and on but you get the picture of what politics is now in the UK.

I'm getting bombarded with adverts for season tickets at Spurs on this site (no idea why). I can only hold out for so long before I give in.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Been off this thread for a while so forgive me if this has been discussed...

But I am considering the possible "what happens next" scenario. Something I had not really paid much attention to is, if as seems very likely, we end up seeking a further A50 extension, the EU are not obliged to grant one.

Is it is possible that they may refuse? At first glance, you'd assume not, since in the main, they do not want us leaving without a deal. But that's not necessarily the view of all the member states and all of them need to agree to an extension.

Moreover, what would happen if they DID refuse? We'd then be looking at leaving on October 31st without a deal. So what would parliament do? It could either accept that and say hey ho we're going to leave then. Or it could pass a motion to revoke A50 and cancel Brexit. As far as I can tell those would be the only two options, and I find it inconceivable - bearing in mind the law just passed to prevent us leaving without a deal, that we'd simply drift out without a deal. Our only option would be to cancel Brexit.

It wouldn't take rocket scientists on the EU side to work this out. If they refuse to allow a further extension, then in all likelihood (imo) Brexit is cancelled. Which of course is the outcome they want most of all.

So are we heading for no extension, no referendum and cancellation of Brexit before the end of October? We might be.

This is the bit the leavers fail to understand ..... there is no obligation on the Eu members to offer us a trade deal in any form whatsoever... in fact its in their interests not to as it will allow them to fill the gap by developing their own industries .... they don't like us , they don't like the fact we have a rebate, they don't like the fact we hold vetoes over many of their aspirations , they don't like the fact we are not in the Euro, they don't like the fact we are so anti Eu , they don't like the fact we are attempting brexit.

They know that no one they currently trade with can offer us a better deal without offering it (or better) to the Eu.

Never have so few fucked up for so many......

 

[west didsblue]

@west didsblue

Not been paying close attention for a few days - so can you kindly point me to where I will find your considerations in response to this post and to support your post:

​

I was looking forward to seeing you seize this opportunity to show that you have some real substance to back-up your comments.

I can be very patient - if you need to do some research, or phone a friend, that's cool.

I know that you said:

"If it was anyone else I’d explain why but for you I would be wasting my time."

So don't to it for me - do it for yourself and all the other posters who will no doubt be keen to be impressed - afterall, you would not want anyone to be thinking that all you do is just post snide one-liners and then run for cover because you have no substance to back them up would you?

If anyone else is interested in me repeating my opinion they only need to ask.
As it appears to be just you, I'm not going to waste my time as you don't appear to have the capacity for a reasoned discussion.

 

[Chippy_boy]

We are already a low tax, lightly regulated country.

Handing over 47% of your earnings and paying 20% tax on everything you spend could not possibly be regarded as "low tax". Let alone Corbyn's proposed 70% (or is it 75%) plus NI.

And "lightly regulated"? Good grief, I'd hate to think what you imagine "highly regulated" looks like.

EDIT: Here are the highest rates of tax by region:

EU average 38%
Europe average 32%
Global average 31%
Latin America average 32%
North America average 35%
Oceania average 33%
OECD average 42%
South America average 32%

The UK is 45% (47%) inc NI. The US is 37% and that's on sole incomes above about £450,000 a year. And most of their states pay single figure (or zero) sales tax, not 20% VAT.

 

[west didsblue]

I ignored it because you quoted my post and claimed I was somehow talking about MP's.

I wasn't, I was talking directly to a remain voter and his attitude.

Fascists again....

So how has that particular poster been doing his level best to overturn Brexit? By posting stuff on Bluemoon?

The only ones that can if they wanted to are MPs, hence my original observation.