Another new Brexit thread

[bluejon]

Govt helpfully pointing out some of the benefits of Brexit. Lots of Govt red tape. I’m pumped :)

Stop moaning. This will be proper fit for purpose Great British red tape, not cheese eating surrender monkey european red tape.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Govt helpfully pointing out some of the benefits of Brexit. Lots of Govt red tape. I’m pumped :)

Shouldn't worry about it. Greta whatever her name is will have all flying banned by 2020 anyway.

 

[M18CTID]

When you look at the Labour policies, you do genuinely wonder whether some of them are all well-intentioned but non-sensical. Or whether they are actually motivated by fucking over "the rich", and have nothing to do with seeking improvement.

The private school joke proposals are a case in point. It seems to me that what drives these sorts of idiotic policies is simply resentment of seeing some people doing better than others. Not that many parents of kids in private school are "rich". And after paying the exorbitant fees, many most certainly are not.

Yeah, I remember when the list was put up the other week I agreed with some of them but others seemed to smack of resentment of those who are better off than them. It seems in some people's eyes that if you're earning over, say, £50,000 a year then you deserve to pay even higher income tax than you are now. Could it just be that a lot of those people on higher wages have actually, shock horror, worked hard to get to that position?

 

[feedmpenzaandhewillscore]

Govt helpfully pointing out some of the benefits of Brexit. Lots of Govt red tape. I’m pumped :)

I’ve seen it on motorways too advising truck drivers that paperwork may change on the 1st of November. I think with the way it’s playing out we will still be in it by then unless Boris can get something out of Brussels, he doesn’t look like he is doing much negotiating unless it’s with a gun to the EUs head with sort a deal or else.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Yeah, I remember when the list was put up the other week I agreed with some of them but others seemed to smack of resentment of those who are better off than them. It seems in some people's eyes that if you're earning over, say, £50,000 a year then you deserve to pay even higher income tax than you are now. Could it just be that a lot of those people on higher wages have actually, shock horror, worked hard to get to that position?

Of course not. They are all privileged and should be punished.

And apart from anything, any personal gains who may have made are NECESSARILY at the expense of some other exploited minions. Minions who are far more deserving of the money you've made. Genuinely, that is how some of the idiots on here think, it really is.

Even people like Bob - who you would think is more sensible - has lectured me on how all my gains are brought about by the state infrastructure from which I have benefitted - the roads, schools, electricity supply, what have you. And that I should hand over even more tax with glee. Of course the tax I already pay which covers these costs maybe 10x over, doesn't count.

 

[blueinsa]

Only to fascists.

 

[Ban-jani]

Course it was, he is a remainer.

And you only agree with leave voters, what’s your point?

I actually agree with a couple of leave posters on here, Kev Horlocks Wand is a good poster for example.

 

[urban genie]

I just found it rather amusing that on the cherry-picked list of terrible aspects of life in Singapore, it contained quite a few things which are actually a lot better than what we see across the EU. And that was the "terrible" list.

But never mind Vic, if you prefer the luxuries offered to all in all those uber-successful communist states, then be my guest.

Have you been to singapore?

I have a couple of times was always expensive and shite

 

[blueinsa]

And you only agree with leave voters, what’s your point?

I actually agree with a couple of leave posters on here, Kev Horlocks Wand is a good poster for example.

My point is his post was word for word what has been espoused by remainers on this forum for the last 3 years.

Its word for word what you get off Twitter, classic #FBPE justification for why the ref should not be allowed to stand.

Its him/remain telling me how democracy works and how I should think.

Its why you agree with it and think its a good post.

We are never, ever going to agree.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

No not true, if an election was called today parliament must recess for 25 days before polling can take place, so more likeley 22nd or 24th October

The last EU meeting where we can askfor an extention is the 21st-23rd sumit.


Their is simply not enough time and a no deal would happen.

He was asking for an election weeks ago

 

[Vic]

When you look at the Labour policies, you do genuinely wonder whether some of them are all well-intentioned but non-sensical. Or whether they are actually motivated by fucking over "the rich", and have nothing to do with seeking improvement.

The private school joke proposals are a case in point. It seems to me that what drives these sorts of idiotic policies is simply resentment of seeing some people doing better than others. Not that many parents of kids in private school are "rich". And after paying the exorbitant fees, many most certainly are not.

So why do they do it?

 

[Vic]

Yeah, I remember when the list was put up the other week I agreed with some of them but others seemed to smack of resentment of those who are better off than them. It seems in some people's eyes that if you're earning over, say, £50,000 a year then you deserve to pay even higher income tax than you are now. Could it just be that a lot of those people on higher wages have actually, shock horror, worked hard to get to that position?

Possibly. Should we tax only the undeserving rich?
Thankfully I'[m off to do better things, so hors de jeu till later, but it seems the Liar has put people off actually discussing Brexit.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Possibly. Should we tax only the undeserving rich?

We do it’s called inheritance tax

 

[Ban-jani]

Chaos you say? Understatement if ever there was.

We stopped being a democracy when Thatcher bowled into town and turned us into a Police state/dictatorship. With Blair there was brief hope but that soon was exposed for what it was and since then we have had Cameron.

I totally agree that the Tories should never be in office again and I am happy to say anyone who votes for them is a bellend. Likewise sadly the same can be said for Labour and anyone who votes for them particularly under Corbyn whom would be worse than Thatcher at the opposite end of the scale.

So tell me when we last were a true democracy with a decent society? If you can remember you are older than me.

This country is fucked, divided, driven by greed and selfishness. I cannot see one single party that has any potential whatsoever to change that. Certainly not Labour or the Tories and as for the Lib Dems who are about as much use as a one legged man in an arse kicking competition.

I disagree with the overall assessment that everyone else was/is bad and it’s not just Johnson.

None of them broke the law to suspended Parliament in a national crisis, all of them show respect for the Head of State and haven’t manipulated her, none of them have purposefully tried to force through something that will utterly ruin lives, without a mandate to do so.

You can point to Thatcher enforcing neoliberalism, you can look at the Iraq war and you can even look at austerity under Cameron, or him even calling the Brexit vote. All of them did so with a mandate from the public and the backing of the House.

Johnson is the only one trying to bypass that and that’s something Thatcher would never have done, as she saw the sovereignty of parliament as absolutely paramount to UK democracy.

 

[urban genie]

He was asking for an election weeks ago

2 weeks ago to be precise and a day before proregation was announced, under that he could choose the date as the 25 days is a minimum, this was all heared to have an electon that meany no deal went through.

As I said if today he got from the EU an agreement to extend the deadline the election vote would be passed, so only he is preventing the election by ignoring the act of parliament that was passed.

 

[Ban-jani]

My point is his post was word for word what has been espoused by remainers on this forum for the last 3 years.

Its word for word what you get off Twitter, classic #FBPE justification for why the ref should not be allowed to stand.

Its him/remain telling me how democracy works and how I should think.

Its why you agree with it and think its a good post.

We are never, ever going to agree.

I’ve never heard the death penalty analogy before and I liked it and thought it made sense.

We can agree, I’ve agreed with Kevin Horlocks Wand and Metal Biker on compromising with a soft Brexit, which I wouldn’t be entirely opposed to at this stage.

I disagree with people who think no deal is a leverage to bluff, it’s not and people who want no deal anyway, as opposed to any other outcome.

The latter there being the biggest cunts going and normally right wing extremists.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Possibly. Should we tax only the undeserving rich?
Thankfully I'[m off to do better things, so hors de jeu till later, but it seems the Liar has put people off actually discussing Brexit.

What's Corbyn done now?

 

[Saddleworth2]

I thought it was dripping with the usual anti-Tory clichés to be honest. The most cynically ludicrous being this oft-repeated slur that there's some evil billionaires in the background seeking to damage the UK economy for some kind of convoluted gain. It really is utter nonsense.

I am a Remainer, remember, and no defender of the ERG. But even I can recognise that what drives these people is a desire to see the UK flourish without interference and meddling by the EU. Not to see us fail.

That the hard Brexit "vision" is probably one of UK which has lower taxes, less regulation, smaller government and perhaps less state support for individuals, sits uncomfortably with the lefties. That's probably why they've invented the corrupt billionaires slur. But it is nonsense.

I’m a remainer and no lefty, but if you believe that these Tories are doing this for the good of the U.K. and all it’s citizens then it is you that is very wrong. They want to create a U.K. that they with their privilege and wealth and those of their class can flourish in nothing more, nothing less. They have been brought up on the playing fields of Eton and retain an empire mentality. They care little for the union that they are risking with their demeanour and behaviours. They care even less about those in the U.K. that are disadvantaged or live in poverty, seeing them as ‘cheap labour’. That Boris is ‘standing up’ for the man in the street vs the establishment is as funny as it is tragic that he is selling that story to some. Johnson is not stupid by any means but he is the most wicked politician we have seen in a long time and if he is allowed to continue down his present trajectory will incite violence.

 

[BobKowalski]

Yeah, I remember when the list was put up the other week I agreed with some of them but others seemed to smack of resentment of those who are better off than them. It seems in some people's eyes that if you're earning over, say, £50,000 a year then you deserve to pay even higher income tax than you are now. Could it just be that a lot of those people on higher wages have actually, shock horror, worked hard to get to that position?

Why do you assume people at a Labour conference are resentful of people better off then them? Are all Labour Party attendees poor as church mice? Do you think sticking a couple of extra points on higher rate tax or corporation tax makes attendees saving up for their pot noodles feel better?

Maybe it’s just the Labour Party and it’s members have a different view on what makes a society better and it has nothing to do with ‘resentment’. It’s just a different viewpoint and different values. You can argue the effectiveness of certain policies but the framing that this is all to do with ‘resentment’ smacks of an unwillingness to engage in the debate about the society we want to live in.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I’ve never heard the death penalty analogy before and I liked it and thought it made sense.

We can agree, I’ve agreed with Kevin Horlocks Wand and Metal Biker on compromising with a soft Brexit, which I wouldn’t be entirely opposed to at this stage.

I disagree with people who think no deal is a leverage to bluff, it’s not and people who want no deal anyway, as opposed to any other outcome.

The latter there being the biggest cunts going and normally right wing extremists.

Genuinely, I think you are mistaken about this. There may be a few - a dozen of less would be my guess - for whom it is true, but for the vast majority of Tory MPs it certainly is not the case. Even people like Rees-Mogg, for example, voted FOR the May deal on last reading remember. Of course a BRINO is deeply unappealing for the likes of Rees-Mogg, so you can see why anything that doesn't actually look like Brexit at all, is dismissed by them.

And the "threatening to kill ourselves is not a convincing bluff" argument, is deeply flawed.

First, it assumes that the EU are ambivalent about whether we leave with a deal or not, and this is absolutely untrue. The EU definitely do NOT want us leaving with no deal. They'd rather we stayed of course, but if we must leave then they want it to be with a deal. No deal would be painful for us, but it would be painful for them too, and the threat of it does carry some bargaining power. Or at least it did until the HoC scuppered it.

Second, you only have to look at the evidence of how the EU has responded. You might disagree with the theory, but look at the evidence. With May in charge and no prospect whatsoever of us leaving with no deal, the EU's stance was that the May deal was the only one on offer, that it could not be materially amended in any way, and that that negotiators had gone home. End of discussion. Boris comes on the scene and says we're off by October 31st with or without a deal and unless you give us something better, then we're off without a deal. And what happens? Suddenly the EU are prepared to consider any and all alternative proposals.

Bluff works. It's the only thing that does work in negotiations. You have to have a credible walk-away option. Credible, not just saying it, looking like you mean it. But behind the scenes do we want a deal? Damned right we do.