Another new Brexit thread

[Blue Hefner]

You thought that was worth posting again just for the extra line of knife talk.....

Yeah, I did think it was worth posting. A polite reminder of who as a country we are now in bed with. You might not like it but there’s no getting away from it

 

[Chippy_boy]

Bit like a leave with a deal brexit. Not perfect, but the best we've got to avoid the continuation of the matter.

Yes, I agree.

Not what I want, but at the same time I want this whole mess to go away and it isn't going to unless / until we leave in some way or another.

 

[meltonblue]

If we don't hold referendums, we shouldn't hold general elections either.

The electorate mustn't be consulted in matters that involve the nation, but IS consulted on who it is that governs the nation and which policies it follows? Something is seriously wrong there. The referendum wasn't legally binding; the Tories made leaving the EU one of it's new pledges to the people as a result of the referendum and has been trying to carry it out. Many MP's on both the opposition bench and in Government were elected in 2017 on the back of seeing the UK leave the EU, but many still disagreed on how that was to be acheived.

Removing referendums removes the electorate on national decisions; that is a very murky path to want to follow.

Disagree with that. If any of the parties wanted to have it as a policy of theirs to leave pre the referendum then they absolutely could have done (that’s why UKIP existed wasn’t it...?). If they did, then I’d expect it to be part of a manifesto that would explain the how and why as part of the full picture of their policies. The electorate should make the decision on who to govern and what they want to happen on the basis of that, not voting on individual issues that don’t take the rest of it into account. That’s how you end up with parties split and not able to implement them, particularly when they aren’t used to cross party working like other countries that do hold referendums successfully are.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Wasn't aware that CERN held any official powers over the populous to be honest. You may as well have asked on what I felt about holding a referendum on StageCoach upping fares every April, tbh. The two situations don't equate to what i'm saying here. (and it's starting to come off a little condescending)

Organisations that directly impact the lives of citizens must always be held accountable to the public and checked on the regular whether that organisation is worthy of continuing. Membership of an organisation like the EU has a huge impact on people's lives, some find it beneficial, others detrimental, and simnce we've seen that MP's act independently of the wishes of their constituants when in Parliament, referendums allow the electorate the chance to voice our opinion of them.

You may think it's a stupid idea, I did not, how about we have a referendum on whether we should hold referendums!

You're right, I think it was a stupid idea and anyone who thinks otherwise must be stupid. Is that condescending enough for you? Jeez "condescending"????! Touchy or what.

And regards the "must always be held accountable" line, they are. Every 5 years at least.

You haven't in any way justified how it can make sense to ask people ill-equipped to decide on a complex matter, what we should do regards said complex matter. It is illogical, pointless and as we have seen, extremely dangerous to seek guidance from those unable to give it.

 

[Metal Biker]

Parliament is sovereign, it’s the epitome of our democracy and the United Kingdom. It comes above all else and must remain where the power lies.

They’re not unaccountable, we can vote them out every 5 years.

Plus, you do realise it’s parliament that calls referendums anyway?

On the back of the public support. The Tories were voted in on the back of the promise they'd hold a referendum and as a result, were voted into Government. Parliament then agreed to hold one.

The public chose which Parliamentarians agreed with that directive. Parliament is sovereign, but the electorate chooses the representatives of Parliament, not Parliament itself.

 

[Metal Biker]

You're right, I think it was a stupid idea and anyone who thinks otherwise must be stupid. Is that condescending enough for you? Jeez "condescending"????! Touchy or what.

And regards the "must always be held accountable" line, they are. Every 5 years at least.

No need to overreact.

And the public has no plans to remove referendums. I cannot see any motion to remove referendums being popular in Parliament.

 

[BobKowalski]

I think it's the six year interlude that's the real bone of contention. Think GLA think UEFA.

I think the real ‘bone’ was the one he was giving the woman in question while handing over bundles of taxpayer cash.

 

[Chippy_boy]

No need to overreact.

And the public has no plans to remove referendums. I cannot see any motion to remove referendums being popular in Parliament.

You're confusing my opinion on whether they are a good idea, with my suggesting they will disappear any time soon. A suggestion I have not made.

 

[Ban-jani]

On the back of the public support. The Tories were voted in on the back of the promise they'd hold a referendum and as a result, were voted into Government. Parliament then agreed to hold one.

The public chose which Parliamentarians agreed with that directive. Parliament is sovereign, but the electorate chooses the representatives of Parliament, not Parliament itself.

I’m not disagreeing with that but I think we need to rethink referendums as a part of what parliament should enact, it’s quite clearly this one has been one big fuck up and has almost ripped apart our constitution.

What it’s done is make a topic less than 10% of the population thought was an issue, the number one issue.

We’re a representative democracy and therefore governments shouldn’t enact referendums on such key issues.

 

[Metal Biker]

I’m not disagreeing with that but I think we need to rethink referendums as a part of what parliament should enact, it’s quite clearly this one has been one big fuck up and has almost ripped apart our constitution.

What it’s done is make a topic less than 10% of the population thought was an issue, the number one issue.

We’re a representative democracy and therefore governments shouldn’t enact referendums on such key issues.

It wasn't binding; the Tory Government saw the result as a national directive and vowed to carry it forward. They went to the nation again in a GE and it still returned that half the electorate still supported the decision to leave the EU, as one of their pledges was to get brexit done, as did Labour, except their vision for leaving was different.

The topic here is about removing referendums being a good Idea; i'm saying it's hypocritical to suggest refs are wrong on the basis (excuse) that sometimes the public doesn't know enough about the topic to make a decision, so we should remove them, yet when it comes to choosing an MP to form Parliament, the public is 100% trusted to have made the right decision.

It was a huge opinion poll, and the Conservative Government made it one of their policies based on the result and the number of people supporting it.
Do you want to stop referendums or stop referendums being enacted by Parliament? As I say, I cannot see the Scots or the Northern Irish being too happy at referendums being removed.

 

[Metal Biker]

You're confusing my opinion on whether they are a good idea, with my suggesting they will disappear any time soon. A suggestion I have not made.

That was just in response to your "accountable" line.

I'm stating it's pointless you telling me you don't like them; they aren't going away any time soon. Removing the right of referendum is undemocratic.

 

[Chippy_boy]

That was just in response to your "accountable" line.

I'm stating it's pointless you telling me you don't like them; they aren't going away any time soon.

It's not pointless, I was expressing my opinion. This entire forum is pointless if the measure is whether anyone's post makes any difference whatsoever.

 

[Metal Biker]

It's not pointless. This entire forum is pointless if the measure is whether anyone's post makes any difference whatsoever.

Now we're getting somewhere. *disclaimer: a joke

You believe the public should have the right of referendum removed because the concept is stupid.
I believe it is the right of a citizen to hold referendums on matters pertaining especially to membership of unions between political powers.

We don't agree. End of.

 

[meltonblue]

It wasn't binding; the Tory Government saw the result as a national directive and vowed to carry it forward. They went to the nation again in a GE and it still returned that half the electorate still supported the decision to leave the EU, as one of their pledges was to get brexit done, as did Labour, except their vision for leaving was different.

The topic here is about removing referendums being a good Idea; i'm saying it's hypocritical to suggest refs are wrong on the basis (excuse) that sometimes the public doesn't know enough about the topic to make a decision, so we should remove them, yet when it comes to choosing an MP to form Parliament, the public is 100% trusted to have made the right decision.

It was a huge opinion poll, and the Conservative Government made it one of their policies based on the result and the number of people supporting it.
Do you want to stop referendums or stop referendums being enacted by Parliament? As I say, I cannot see the Scots or the Northern Irish being too happy at referendums being removed.

Personally, I didn’t say we shouldn’t have them because the electorate might not know enough. I wouldn’t have them because I don’t think it suits how our parliament currently operates. Firstly because when the parties don’t have the implementation of it as a full and clear plan as part of their overall manifestos, it causes splits and issues with delivery like what we are seeing now within the tories and secondly because we don’t have parties that work together well as we aren’t used to it and we also aren’t used to coalition governments like others are.

For this one to have been a success, I think they either had to go into more referendums or the negotiations should have been done with members from at least the two main parties.

 

[Metal Biker]

I wouldn’t mind referendums as much if we were more used to coalition governments that can work together. It m


Personally, I didn’t say we shouldn’t have them because the electorate might not know enough. I wouldn’t have them because I don’t think it suits how our parliament currently operates. Firstly because when the parties don’t have the implementation of it as a full and clear plan as part of their overall manifestos, it causes splits and issues with delivery like what we are seeing now within the tories and secondly because we don’t have parties that work together well as we aren’t used to it and we also aren’t used to coalition governments like others are.

For this one to have been a success, I think they either had to go into more referendums or the negotiations should have been done with members from at least the two main parties.

Referendums are opinion polls. Our Sovereign Parliament decided to honour the result, whatever it was.

Parliament elected to choose to carry out the result of the referendum. It's exactly how our democracy has worked. The issues have boiled down to divisions amongst MP's about how we should leave, or whether we should bin the whole process.

Parliamentarians could easily decide today "we're no longer" leaving. And come the next General Election, the electorate will let those MP's know what they felt about their decision... by removing them from power.

My point is that referendums are part of our Parliamentary process and are a right of it's citizens to hold them. Regardless of my own opinions on the effectiveness or benefits to referendums, I do not agree with removing that right.

 

[Chippy_boy]

The topic here is about removing referendums being a good Idea; i'm saying it's hypocritical to suggest refs are wrong on the basis (excuse) that sometimes the public doesn't know enough about the topic to make a decision, so we should remove them, yet when it comes to choosing an MP to form Parliament, the public is 100% trusted to have made the right decision.

It was a huge opinion poll, and the Conservative Government made it one of their policies based on the result and the number of people supporting it.
Do you want to stop referendums or stop referendums being enacted by Parliament? As I say, I cannot see the Scots or the Northern Irish being too happy at referendums being removed.

Re para 1, no-one is suggesting our representative system is perfect, as your 100% trusted wording would imply. It is not. Most people agree that some form of accountability is needed, so short of removing everyone's right to vote entirely, then a reasonable compromise is that we elect our representatives. But that we do not typically ask the people to decide on individual matters.

Para 2: I would prefer it if we never had referendums. Holding them and then ignoring the result is pointless and worse than that, highly inflammatory. As to whether any particular faction would be too happy about this, who cares. Some factions are unhappy about pretty much every decision parliament takes. You cannot hold back from making decision on the basis of one group or another being unhappy about it.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Referendums are opinion polls.

Sometimes they are. Sometimes they are legally binding.

 

[meltonblue]

Referendums are opinion polls. Our Sovereign Parliament decided to honour the result, whatever it was.

Parliament elected to choose to carry out the result of the referendum. It's exactly how our democracy has worked. The issues have boiled down to divisions amongst MP's about how we should leave, or whether we should bin the whole process.

Yes, none of that is incompatible with my opinion of it though and why it has been so hard to implement.

 

[Metal Biker]

Sometimes they are. Sometimes they are legally binding.

And Parliament will decide which is which.

 

[Chippy_boy]

And Parliament will decide which is which.

Or not to hold one. A much better idea. IMO.