Another new Brexit thread

[BobKowalski]

If i may be so bold that virtually rubber stamps what many of us leavers have said from day one about the EU.

It isn't about trade and everything to do with the political project.

Its a pity that couldn't have been agreed by the majority and the discussion taken from there.

To get the right environment for trade ie eliminate borders, tariffs, NTB’s for services etc you also need a political dimension. You need common rules and laws so you need a commission and Parliament to formulate them. You need a judicial court to enforce them and an administrative body to run it on behalf of the member countries.

The EU from its beginning was as much a political project as it was a trade project because you cannot have one without the other and our attempt via Brexit to have the benefits (trade) without the perceived cost (politics) is why Brexit was always going to fail. In short allowing the U.K. to have its cake and eat it was never going to be in the interests of 27 other countries and countries do not willingly vote against their own interests.

That this self evident truth about politics and trade was never agreed on was because Remain focused largely on trade and tried to ignore the politics and Leave focused on selling the lie that we could enjoy the benefits without the cost. And we bought the lie.

 

[west didsblue]

Yep and the inconvenient truth for you is who has stood up again and supported the uk . The USA that’s who.

Eu , hello eu , are you there eu?

You do realise that it's been the USA that has stoked it up in the first place in much the same way as Trump did with North Korea.

Doing the Arsonist turned Fire Fighter routine may fool his base but it doesn't fool most people.

The USA have got the best of both world's now. They can look tough with Iran and have someone else in the firing line.

 

[Rascal]

Exactly remainers talk of economic impact leavers talk of the money and the political project . Pages and pages of it.

Leaver argues a political issue , remainer counters with an economic issue .

In effect then what you are saying is leavers argue the politics of poverty is secondary to the ideals of sovereignty whilst remain argue the economics of wealth is secondary to pollical independence.

Meanwhile nobody argues both points at the same time. Where are the people who argue that sovereignty is essential to eradicating poverty or that subjugation to EU idealism eradicates poverty? All I see is the promotion of wealth through a political means as shown by the endless debate about trade. Nobody argues what is best for the people. Both sides are myopic In this and the choice is between neo-liberalism (remain) or more neo-liberalism (leave) and that in itself renders the sovereignty debate as meaningless, because the people are at the mercy of the Capitalists whoever prevails.

In effect then whatever the outcome, the only winners are the neo-liberal orthodoxy and the nation has wasted the last few years debating a moot point.

 

[BobKowalski]

"In this world,
one thing counts,
in the bank,
Large Amounts"

We will see as halloween approaches what drives our European friends...

And still we refuse to accept the evidence of our own eyes. It isn’t just trade. Or money. There are deeper motivations. Like not returning to the past. And even if it was about just about money the other 27 countries can see preserving the integrity of the Single Market and the EU project is more beneficial long term than destroying it over the whims of one country that wants out.

 

[George Hannah]

And still we refuse to accept the evidence of our own eyes. It isn’t just trade. Or money. There are deeper motivations. Like not returning to the past. And even if it was about just about money the other 27 countries can see preserving the integrity of the Single Market and the EU project is more beneficial long term than destroying it over the whims of one country that wants out.

When President Hollande said the most important thing to preserve the fragile unity of the European project is ensuring the Britain pays a heavy price for Brexit - he meant it.

 

[BobKowalski]

When President Hollande said the most important thing to preserve the fragile unity of the European project is ensuring the Britain pays a heavy price for Brexit - he meant it.

Turns out the unity wasn’t so fragile after all. And yeah if a country takes a decision that is seen as inimical to the interests of 27 other countries then expect a heavy price. I mean what did you think was going to happen? Did you think the EU and 27 other elected leaders were running a hippie commune? When the EU is negotiating with other countries or blocs it doesn’t do so by advertising weakness or having a reputation as being a soft touch.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Sorry not you personally, should have said fans of the eu or remainers.

Wasn’t personal , just sloppy language.

Apologies.

No worries mate. I really didn't take any offence. I was just surprised that you would call out the US as a supporter. Trump will only be happy when he has sold off most of our health service to US interests. He also told May to walk away from negotiations with EU if they wouldn't bend to her will. Him and Johnson will get on famously.
Seriously, do you expect the EU to take any different stance? They put their own red lines down on day 1. Protection of the 4 freedoms. They haven't deviated from that since and I don't blame them as it is at the core of what the EU is. We want to leave the club but we expect them to bend out of shape to allow that to happen.

I cant see a good way out of this mate. Better buckle ourselves in for what is going to be a very bumpy ride.
Look on the bright side I suppose, Trump's behaviours might lead to him being impeached at some point. Lets hope so as I have no confidence he wont be elected in for a second term.

 

[Ban-jani]

Turns out the unity wasn’t so fragile after all. And yeah if a country takes a decision that is seen as inimical to the interests of 27 other countries then expect a heavy price. I mean what did you think was going to happen? Did you think the EU and 27 other elected leaders were running a hippie commune? When the EU is negotiating with other countries or blocs it doesn’t do so by advertising weakness or having a reputation as being a soft touch.

2016 “we hold all the cards”

2019 “the EU is so mean and is punishing us”

 

[cibaman]

No worries mate. I really didn't take any offence. I was just surprised that you would call out the US as a supporter. Trump will only be happy when he has sold off most of our health service to US interests. He also told May to walk away from negotiations with EU if they wouldn't bend to her will. Him and Johnson will get on famously.
Seriously, do you expect the EU to take any different stance? They put their own red lines down on day 1. Protection of the 4 freedoms. They haven't deviated from that since and I don't blame them as it is at the core of what the EU is. We want to leave the club but we expect them to bend out of shape to allow that to happen.

I cant see a good way out of this mate. Better buckle ourselves in for what is going to be a very bumpy ride.
Look on the bright side I suppose, Trump's behaviours might lead to him being impeached at some point. Lets hope so as I have no confidence he wont be elected in for a second term.

Be careful what you wish for. If Trump were to be impeached, what sort of character would the Republicans put forward in 2020?

 

[smudgedj]

Parliamentary maths have not changed so Boris can afford to appear to want to push brexit through but it still won't get beyond parliament. We're probably looking at a GE by Xmas with either remain or hard brexit being the options depending on the balance of power in parliament after that. Don't hold me to any of this.

That would be true if we were a self governing nation however we are not; Eu law currently holds primacy over British law. Eu law says we leave on the 31st.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Fuck me

Just got some euros at the post office

302 quid got me 305 euros

The lady said at the airport the euro will be stronger than the pound on the exchange desks.

Ouch

 

[Blue Hefner]

Fuck me

Just got some euros at the post office

302 quid got me 305 euros

The lady said at the airport the euro will be stronger than the pound on the exchange desks.

Ouch

It's currently 1.11 V the Euro. Helps me because I change Euros/Dollars into £ to pay myself*

*yes I am ware that my small, short sighted benefits have wider implications

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

That would be true if we were a self governing nation however we are not; Eu law currently holds primacy over British law. Eu law says we leave on the 31st.

I hear you, but is that not the same EU law that said we left on 29 March?

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Yep and the inconvenient truth for you is who has stood up again and supported the uk . The USA that’s who.

Eu , hello eu , are you there eu?

The US created this mess by ripping up the Nuclear treaty with Iran... the Eu have agreed to honour the treaty .... leaving us stuck in the middle of a 'special relationship' (My arse)

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

That’s because we largely draw our political class and media class from the same limited pool so you repeatedly get the same attitudes, the same views all being shaped by the same environment. How many PMs have to come from Eton for the penny to drop that this is either an astonishing statistical anomaly or the system is rigged?

We are also myopic on Europe and it’s politics. Our media is very good at Westminster and Washington politics. But on European politics it is clueless. The EU is the richest and most powerful trade bloc on the planet and we as a country have no clue on how it operates. We either treat it as a joke with funny foreigners or with outrage at stories over bendy bananas. Our understanding is stuck at toddler level. And talking of toddlers this is why you get a PM like Johnson. We have a toddlers understanding of the problems that face us so we elect a toddler to do the job.

The correct answer is 20 ...... that's how many PMs have come from Eton.

 

[BobKowalski]

That would be true if we were a self governing nation however we are not; Eu law currently holds primacy over British law. Eu law says we leave on the 31st.

We are a self governing nation. We can override the Oct 31st date through the unilateral sovereign act of revoking A50 and there is nothing the EU or 27 other countries can do about it.

Furthermore we can unilaterally leave the EU at any point prior to 31st Oct and again there is nothing the EU or 27 other countries can do about it.

 

[smudgedj]

I hear you, but is that not the same EU law that said we left on 29 March?

Yes. The PM asked for an extension. She didn’t need to.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

The US created this mess by ripping up the Nuclear treaty with Iran... the Eu have agreed to honour the treaty .... leaving us stuck in the middle of a 'special relationship' (My arse)

They ripped up because the Iranians simply ignored it. Keep up with the news.

 

[west didsblue]

They ripped up because the Iranians simply ignored it. Keep up with the news.

Only according to Trump.
In case you hadn't realised - Trump tells lots of lies.

 

[Vic]

For Hunt the penny finally drops. You cannot negotiate successfully if you are blind to what drives and motivates the other side.

It's still rational economically. EU political unity is good for business.