Another new Brexit thread

[Metal Biker]

No - if the govt they want doesn't get in they don't down tools they CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE GOVT THAT WON.............is it sinking in? A Remain result would not have been accepted - Farage himself said in an interview pre referendum that if Leave lost then he would get up 9am the following day and continue to campaign to Leave.

Remainers criticised Farage for holding that viewpoint.

Now it's suddenly an "acceptable stance" to have. Remainers are funny.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Remainers criticised Farage for holding that viewpoint.

Now it's suddenly an "acceptable stance" to have. Remainers are funny.

Remainers criticsize Farage coz he's a dick but he is the bogeyman that even now through Johnson is steering the country thats how bad things are. If Cameron and the Tories were all about the good of the country rather than just wanting to hold onto power he wouldn't have shat himself he wouldn't have offered the referendum. Only one party was pro-Leave that was UKIP. If UKIP could have got the 17 odd million voters then that would be the way we demonstrate support or otherwise for a party and its politics in the FPTP system - flawed as it is. It would have shaken things up and maybe brought us a 4 party system into Parliament - however they have handed Farage a 2nd go because they are so shit and so riven over the multifaceted interpretation they have on Brexit.

And don't do the " oh if you hold that view it must mean you have this view" thing. Its like when someone criticsizes Yaxley-lennon and gets a response " if you hate Tommy you clearly support the rape of innocent English girls " bullshit - I credit you with more intelligence than that.

 

[Vic]

Remainers criticised Farage for holding that viewpoint.

Now it's suddenly an "acceptable stance" to have. Remainers are funny.

Folks, it's late. I assume MB still has me on ignore, for accusing him of moving the goalposts that he himself put up.

I think he's now just trolling. Don't feed...

 

[Metal Biker]

Remainers criticsize Farage coz he's a dick but he is the bogeyman that even now through Johnson is steering the country thats how bad things are. If Cameron and the Tories were all about the good of the country rather than just wanting to hold onto power he wouldn't have shat himself he wouldn't have offered the referendum. Only one party was pro-Leave that was UKIP. If UKIP could have got the 17 odd million voters then that would be the way we demonstrate support or otherwise for a party and its politics in the FPTP system - flawed as it is. It would have shaken things up and maybe brought us a 4 party system into Parliament - however they have handed Farage a 2nd go because they are so shit and so riven over the multifaceted interpretation they have on Brexit.

And don't do the " oh if you hold that view it must mean you have this view" thing. Its like when someone criticsizes Yaxley-lennon and gets a response " if you hate Tommy you clearly support the rape of innocent English girls " bullshit - I credit you with more intelligence than that.

It's the stance, not the person.

It was criticised when a leave campaigner claimed it, but acceptible for remainers to do the exact same thing? Remove the personality and focus on what's being said.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

It's wonderful seeing MB implode with non sequitur arguments. Brexit was always destined to fail as there was never a passage it could sail through that wouldn't cripple us as a nation. As the cliff edge approaches each time, the pound falls lower and lower. Businesses who didn't want to say anything in fear of alienating the 17.4m leavers are slowly starting to come out one by one saying they will suffer badly in a no deal scenario.

The extremists are being alienated slowly, but surely. Come November, when the pound is less than a dollar, Johnson, a man without principles, but desire to be popular, will cave and either an extension will have been agreed or we will have revoked A50.

All those believing he is hard wired to a no deal Brexit need to remember he hasn't been hardwired to anything bar being popular.

No Gortonia for MB.

 

[yerwot?]

I credit you with more intelligence than that.

yeah me too (said nobody, ever)

 

[Saddleworth2]

I have been having a happy time in Ireland for the last week and a bit. Have I missed anything back in good old Blighty? Johnson still PM? Corbyn still leading the Labour Party? Everyone getting on on this thread?

 

[west didsblue]

I'm mostly refering to remain voters who respected the result, but decided to support no brexit options.

Have I missed a further referendum?
How did Remain voters express this support?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

More lies - GFA dead in the water - trade deal with the USA similar

It was all going to be so straightforward.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Just backing a solution would have been preferable. It's a nationwide issue but some of you act like it doesn't concern you because you don;t support it.

Do people down tools just because the Government they didn't want got in power? Would you have had no concerns if people refused to respect a remain result, or called for another referendum until they got a leave result? That's not how I remember it being presented to us.

I'm a remainer and whilst not happy at leaving the Eu I have said before that we should honour the outcome of the referendum (unless it can be proven the outcome was determined by illegal actions). The solution would be

1) To sever political ties with the Eu.
2) To remain in a single market / customs union until a solution to the Irish border that is acceptable to both sides can be developed.
3) To accept FOM for that period.


its not a difficult problem to solve and the drive to exit the Eu would push the development of the technology to solve (2)

However it would not be acceptable to Leavers and the ERG because of (3)

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Total bollocks. Ballot papers in an election just offer you a name and party ID. In a referendum it’s usually a binary ‘yes’ or ‘no’ choice. Neither detail the ideology or the manifesto or the competing campaign choices. We make our choice on the ballot paper based on the campaign and the information/manifesto. The Leave campaign specifically promised no material change except positives ones and even stated that we would secure a deal prior to leaving. Any suggestion thatuld leave without a deal by the Remain campaign was derided as ‘Project Fear’.

As I said, a very simple choice. You, along with many others, who lost the vote, have retrospectively decided to analyse
the reasons why the leave campaign won, citing perceived false promises in the run up campaign.
This is then used as some sort of justification for the ongoing narrative for another referendum, or scrapping
it entirely. This, whichever way you paint it, is simply sour grapes, the negative campaign from remain didn't
sway leavers did it?
The PM, the leave campaign, in fact virtually everyone, said 'No deal is better than a bad deal,' so going
by your assumptions that we were all influenced, why isn't this one accepted? We have been offered
a bad deal, everyone voted against it, so, unless the EU amend/scrap the part which makes it so bad,
we have to invoke the alternative. As we were told, hundreds of times.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I'm a remainer and whilst not happy at leaving the Eu I have said before that we should honour the outcome of the referendum (unless it can be proven the outcome was determined by illegal actions). The solution would be

1) To sever political ties with the Eu.
2) To remain in a single market / customs union until a solution to the Irish border that is acceptable to both sides can be developed.
3) To accept FOM for that period.


its not a difficult problem to solve and the drive to exit the Eu would push the development of the technology to solve (2)

However it would not be acceptable to Leavers and the ERG because of (3)

A good case was made that the illegal actions by the Leave campaign did result in their win. That the case put to the High Court failed wasn't due to that argument. The case failed because 'The referendum was not legally binding, merely "advisory," according to a Supreme Court judgement, so it can't be ordered to be re-run by a court - any decision to have a fresh referendum would have to be made by the government and Parliament would have to pass a referendum act.'

It was proven by research that Leaves digital campaign reached ten's of millions of voters in the days after its spending limits had been breached and that a significant proportion of those voters made up their mind to vote leave after the breach. In the case presented to the high court, the findings were presented by Professor P Howard of Oxford University:

Professor Philip Howard, director of the Oxford Internet Institute, at the university, said: “My professional opinion is that it is very likely that the excessive spending by Vote Leave altered the result of the referendum.

“A swing of just 634,751 people would have been enough to secure victory for Remain.

“Given the scale of the online advertising achieved with the excess spending, combined with conservative estimates on voter modelling, I estimate that Vote Leave converted the voting intentions of over 800,000 voters in the final days of the campaign as a result of the overspend.”

Estimates and modelling of course but the only method available to 'prove' the outcome was not sound.

 

[mcfc1632]

I'm a remainer and whilst not happy at leaving the Eu I have said before that we should honour the outcome of the referendum (unless it can be proven the outcome was determined by illegal actions). The solution would be

1) To sever political ties with the Eu.
2) To remain in a single market / customs union until a solution to the Irish border that is acceptable to both sides can be developed.
3) To accept FOM for that period.


its not a difficult problem to solve and the drive to exit the Eu would push the development of the technology to solve (2)

However it would not be acceptable to Leavers and the ERG because of (3)

I genuinely think that a lot of Leavers do not have any problem whatsoever with significant immigration - although the level of discrimination that is inherent to FOM does not sit well with me - people from all around the world should have equal opportunity

No matter what strides are made in the development of appropriate/required technologies the EU supported by Ireland will never deem them to be satisfactory - the situation will be abused. Just the same as the backstop must be fettered by a time limit or other method

 

[mcfc1632]

The PM, the leave campaign, in fact virtually everyone, said 'No deal is better than a bad deal,' so going
by your assumptions that we were all influenced, why isn't this one accepted? We have been offered
a bad deal, everyone voted against it, so, unless the EU amend/scrap the part which makes it so bad,
we have to invoke the alternative. As we were told, hundreds of times.

Sometimes the truth of things is indeed just so simple - and inconvenient

 

[yerwot?]

A good case was made that the illegal actions by the Leave campaign did result in their win. That the case put to the High Court failed wasn't due to that argument. The case failed because 'The referendum was not legally binding, merely "advisory," according to a Supreme Court judgement, so it can't be ordered to be re-run by a court - any decision to have a fresh referendum would have to be made by the government and Parliament would have to pass a referendum act.'

It was proven by research that Leaves digital campaign reached ten's of millions of voters in the days after its spending limits had been breached and that a significant proportion of those voters made up their mind to vote leave after the breach. In the case presented to the high court, the findings were presented by Professor P Howard of Oxford University:

Professor Philip Howard, director of the Oxford Internet Institute, at the university, said: “My professional opinion is that it is very likely that the excessive spending by Vote Leave altered the result of the referendum.

“A swing of just 634,751 people would have been enough to secure victory for Remain.

“Given the scale of the online advertising achieved with the excess spending, combined with conservative estimates on voter modelling, I estimate that Vote Leave converted the voting intentions of over 800,000 voters in the final days of the campaign as a result of the overspend.”

Estimates and modelling of course but the only method available to 'prove' the outcome was not sound.

For the millions of disaffected, the utter lie on the boris bus, the racist posters/ads featuring farage, were enough to turn a certain defeat into grand theft auto territory.
revoke, the only cure for this cancer

 

[Ancient Citizen]

For the millions of disaffected, the utter lie on the boris bus, the racist posters/ads featuring farage, were enough to turn a certain defeat into grand theft auto territory.
revoke, the only cure for this cancer

Lol.
This bus malarkey, exactly how much should whoever devised it, have really said?
Would you have been happy at £200 million, or £300 million, which one is acceptable?
By giving us a figure, an accurate one, you'll then be able to say,
'' They lied!!! we're only sending £263,425,064!''
That would then give the revoke camp something to really get its teeth into and will almost certainly get
all previous leave voters to change their view.
I'm certain of it ;)

 

[Len Rum]

As I said, a very simple choice. You, along with many others, who lost the vote, have retrospectively decided to analyse
the reasons why the leave campaign won, citing perceived false promises in the run up campaign.
This is then used as some sort of justification for the ongoing narrative for another referendum, or scrapping
it entirely. This, whichever way you paint it, is simply sour grapes, the negative campaign from remain didn't
sway leavers did it?
The PM, the leave campaign, in fact virtually everyone, said 'No deal is better than a bad deal,' so going
by your assumptions that we were all influenced, why isn't this one accepted? We have been offered
a bad deal, everyone voted against it, so, unless the EU amend/scrap the part which makes it so bad,
we have to invoke the alternative. As we were told, hundreds of times.

"We have been offered a bad deal" ?
"We" (i.e. the British Government) actually suggested and agreed the deal!

 

[Metal Biker]

Lol.
This bus malarkey, exactly how much should whoever devised it, have really said?
Would you have been happy at £200 million, or £300 million, which one is acceptable?
By giving us a figure, an accurate one, you'll then be able to say,
'' They lied!!! we're only sending £263,425,064!''
That would then give the revoke camp something to really get its teeth into and will almost certainly get
all previous leave voters to change their view.
I'm certain of it ;)

I'm certain the bus message rankles leave voters just as much for how the Vote Leave campaign butchered the message it was meant to convey.

 

[KS55]

I'm a remainer and whilst not happy at leaving the Eu I have said before that we should honour the outcome of the referendum (unless it can be proven the outcome was determined by illegal actions). The solution would be

1) To sever political ties with the Eu.
2) To remain in a single market / customs union until a solution to the Irish border that is acceptable to both sides can be developed.
3) To accept FOM for that period.


its not a difficult problem to solve and the drive to exit the Eu would push the development of the technology to solve (2)

However it would not be acceptable to Leavers and the ERG because of (3)

I agree with this as the best of a bad job. Would it get thru the house? Boris would need to convince his looney fringe that this was a step on the way to what they want.. (The backstop would remain, of course, for now). EU "no more negotiation" stance might scupper it too.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Lol.
This bus malarkey, exactly how much should whoever devised it, have really said?
Would you have been happy at £200 million, or £300 million, which one is acceptable?
By giving us a figure, an accurate one, you'll then be able to say,
'' They lied!!! we're only sending £263,425,064!''
That would then give the revoke camp something to really get its teeth into and will almost certainly get
all previous leave voters to change their view.
I'm certain of it ;)

as you know, the figure that was quoted bears no relation to reality so was just an outright lie. If your ok with that then its your conscience. The £19bn when rebate and monies received back from the EU for both private and public sectors is around £6.5bn which would still be a large number but of course doesn't reflect the financial benefits membership of the EU brings to the UK. Who cares that the bus was a deliberate lie and aimed at misleading the voting population.