Another new Brexit thread

[Fred_Quimby]

I keep reading this.

Go with the vote then and lets leave if winning isn't important to you?

It isn't a game, its our democracy and you can fuck off trying to steal it so you can win.

I have had a rest from you just recently BI but I see you are still at it calling people for calling you out. Do you actually know what ‘democracy’ means?? I make a decision every time I go into a polling booth. I sometimes vote one way but another time I may change my mind and vote another. That is my right to do so. I also have the right not to vote. This is called democracy. I can change my mind. People can change their mind and have the right to be heard in this case by voting again. If this means we have several votes then so be it. I prefer to have these votes at GEs though and not as referenda. Tired of people making comments about we had a referendum so that’s it we can’t have another. Nobody can change their mind. It’s just total bullshit.

Democracy is about people having a say in how the country is governed. If that does suit you then tough.

 

[aguero93:20]

Please excuse my frustration, lack of knowledge but what the fuck has actually happened today? All week everyone has been banging on about how Boris needed 320 voted for the deal to go through. He got 322 so what is now happening on Monday?

He got 322 for the amendment making sure it couldn't be timed out resulting in no deal, he then took his ball home and refused to play (withdrew his deal so it couldn't be voted on).

 

[George Hannah]

So they're not bound then.

Wrong again. When you promise something, you don't just say something - you do actually do something. It's really that simple.

 

[Mike D]

It's not the truth, Mike, it's bollocks.

Johnson is and never was hard right, nor even a passionate Brexit supporter. Had the dice rolled differently, he'd have been a Remainer. He wants power and to be remembered as being successful, not a legacy of having brought crisis upon our country and trashed the UK economy. Think about it for one moment, why would any egotist want to be kicked out early and be remembered for failure? Makes zero sense.

And moreover, had he really wanted a hard Brexit, all he had to do was buddy up with Farage and it was job done. So no, he wants a deal, but just wants all his weaponry available to be able to get the best deal. That's all there is to it. Sometime the obvious answer, IS the answer.

Your desperation to see the worst, is completely distorting any rational thought.

 

[mexico1970]

You'll never get a majority in the HOC for Brexit without the biggest and longest supporters of it though.

You're missing my point and my point is this. If it were possible get rid of them all because between them they lied to the electorate and are colluding on killing democracy. THEN have another referendum after a general election and make that referendum binding, no education of the electorate is needed because we've heard enough lies over the years and we'll vote on gut instinct like most did before.
It wont happen but this could be a way of solving the impasse we have now.

 

[blueinsa]

No they are not, they are trying to interpret the effects of direct democracy in a system of representative democracy. Its square pegs in round holes.

I warned of this outcome before the referendum was held, it is just nonsensical to have a referendum without constitutional provision.

The reality is many are playing party politics for obvious reasons and the rest are doing what the fuck they like.

Pretending to care or its about brexit for them is an insult.

 

[aguero93:20]

Wrong again. When you promise something, you don't just say something - you do actually do something. It's really that simple.

So you'll be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border then and you'll get a confirmatory referendum on it then?

@Vic ;)

 

[mexico1970]

No they are not, they are trying to interpret the effects of direct democracy in a system of representative democracy. Its square pegs in round holes.

I warned of this outcome before the referendum was held, it is just nonsensical to have a referendum without constitutional provision.

I agree with your last point but all they are trying to interpret is their own agenda, we need a clean sweep.

 

[aguero93:20]

You're missing my point and my point is this. If it were possible get rid of them all because between them they lied to the electorate and are colluding on killing democracy. THEN have another referendum after a general election and make that referendum binding, no education of the electorate is needed because we've heard enough lies over the years and we'll vote on gut instinct like most did before.
It wont happen but this could be a way of solving the impasse we have now.

You need a written constitution making referendum the only way to change said constitution and a specific version of Brexit voted into said constitution to make it binding on parliament. While parliament are sovereign the electorate can elect them but they can't bind them.

 

[Rascal]

the referendum was binding on the people's representatives.

And there in a nutshell is the real problem.

The referendum acting as coercion onto independent conscience. It was never feasible.

 

[MeatnSpudsMCFC]

The no deal opposition insisted on sitting on a Saturday to discuss and vote on his deal.

They then say they dont.

Its kind of frustrating dont you think?

Some have stated they’ll still vote for the deal, as well as the Letwin amendment. It’ll still pass.

 

[Rascal]

I agree with your last point but all they are trying to interpret is their own agenda, we need a clean sweep.

A clean sweep will not alter the way that our democracy works.

You are confusing agenda with process

 

[mexico1970]

You need a written constitution making referendum the only way to change said constitution and a specific version of Brexit voted into said constitution to make it binding on parliament. While parliament are sovereign the electorate can elect them but they can't bind them.

I understand this bud and we should make the electorates wishes more important than the selfish party politics our main house has descended to over the last 2 decades. We will never leave at this rate so we will always be a split country, IMO the question should never have been asked.

 

[Mike D]

It's not the truth, Mike, it's bollocks.

Johnson is and never was hard right, nor even a passionate Brexit supporter. Had the dice rolled differently, he'd have been a Remainer. He wants power and to be remembered as being successful, not a legacy of having brought crisis upon our country and trashed the UK economy. Think about it for one moment, why would any egotist want to be kicked out early and be remembered for failure? Makes zero sense.

And moreover, had he really wanted a hard Brexit, all he had to do was buddy up with Farage and it was job done. So no, he wants a deal, but just wants all his weaponry available to be able to get the best deal. That's all there is to it. Sometime the obvious answer, IS the answer.

Your desperation to see the worst, is completely distorting any rational thought.

Yeah yeah of course Johnson is such an honest chal he was just jesting with the chaps over at the ERG about pulling a no deal stunt. But one simple question what pull the vote today ? Surely having that feather in your cap to go to the EU asking for an extension plus the momentum of would take the deal over the line. When all said and done it could quite easily be a couple of weeks and this would be done wouldn't it??

Just tell me one good reason why he has had to pull today ?

 

[blueinsa]

I have had a rest from you just recently BI but I see you are still at it calling people for calling you out. Do you actually know what ‘democracy’ means?? I make a decision every time I go into a polling booth. I sometimes vote one way but another time I may change my mind and vote another. That is my right to do so. I also have the right not to vote. This is called democracy. I can change my mind. People can change their mind and have the right to be heard in this case by voting again. If this means we have several votes then so be it. I prefer to have these votes at GEs though and not as referenda. Tired of people making comments about we had a referendum so that’s it we can’t have another. Nobody can change their mind. It’s just total bullshit.

Democracy is about people having a say in how the country is governed. If that does suit you then tough.

Horseshit.

Well actually i agreed with almost every word right up to the point where you think you can stamp your feet because you have suddenly changed your mind and expect another vote because that is not how our democracy works, especially when its a once in a lifetime or generation referendum.

I knew that so voted.

Those that didn't, tough.

How about we leave as per the result and then Parliament can have us vote to rejoin? More than happy to have that as soon as you like but ignore the first because you dont like the result or you think enough might have changed their minds to get you what you want?

No.

Take another break from me if I'm too much for you by all means...i will get over it trust me.

 

[aguero93:20]

I understand this bud and we should make the electorates wishes more important than the selfish party politics our main house has descended to over the last 2 decades. We will never leave at this rate so we will always be a split country, IMO the question should never have been asked.

As I've said, if you want to be a direct democracy then campaign for that, it's an entirely separate issue to Brexit.

 

[mexico1970]

A clean sweep will not alter the way that our democracy works.

You are confusing agenda with process

You're misinterpreting the actions of the sly buggers we have sitting in the seats right now, just because you're ideologically sound don't think the villains in the big house are.

 

[blueinsa]

Some have stated they’ll still vote for the deal, as well as the Letwin amendment. It’ll still pass.

It will.

The remain lot will then move back to the courts or their next plan of stopping brexit by any means.

 

[Kazzydeyna]

I posted last night that Labour should have seriously thought about backing the deal as they could then claim all the credit for Brexit whilst leaving the Tory rebels to look the bad guys.

The spanner in the works was the removal of the level playing field on working rights. It would have been very hard as a Labour MP to vote for something that did that. It turned into a clever trap as Johnson can escape blame and turn it on the opposition, which is what he always wanted anyway imo because I am not convinced Johnson wanted his deal to succeed because the way he performed in the House was approaching abysmal. I really do think today has been as much about Johnson positioning himself to win the next election and cementing his power than it was about Brexit. I am also not convinced Johnson is actually a brexiteer at all, it was just a route to power for him.

I agree about Boris not being a brexiteer. He's always been a remainer . And an opportunist.

As for the removal of the level playing field on workers rights all that does is pass the responsibility of those from Brussels to Westminster . And that's as it should be , surely?

 

[mexico1970]

As I've said, if you want to be a direct democracy then campaign for that, it's an entirely separate issue to Brexit.

We have passed the point in western democracies to even begin to believe we are living in democracies, what this process has shown is what a facade and a sham this so called reality is.