Another new Brexit thread

[Chippy_boy]

Because the Sun and the Mail will tell them what to think every single hour in every single day.

Thank God.

 

[BobKowalski]

Leaving is the only thing that will get us out of this mess now. The sooner you get your head around that, the better IMO.

If we leave under this deal or left under May’s deal I’m relaxed. Still amazed May didn’t have the wit to get passed (well ok not that amazed). Just pointing out what it really means. For me, years in transition, what’s not to like?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I think their significance is inflated by their blatant exploitation of Parliament as a media platform. When one stands up at PMQs the others are like a pack of performing seals smacking their flippers and emitting incomprehensible honks. Outside the TV set pieces they are conspicuously absent - most probably guzzling whiskey soaked porridge and snorting coke.

Is that not a bit racist George? or partyist at least.

 

[aguero93:20]

Is that not a bit racist George? or partyist at least.

Not only that but it's completely inaccurate. The Scots don't drink whiskey.

 

[purplenose]

Leaving is the only thing that will get us out of this mess now. The sooner you get your head around that, the better IMO.

Even as a leaver I fail to see how you come to that conclusion??

 

[west didsblue]

I was.

You were talking about him wrecking the economy purely for personal monetary gain. I was pointing out to you how silly that suggestion is.

It would be silly if I was talking about the increase in salary from backbencher to PM, but I wasn't. His salary won't be his only source of income.

I think it's a combination of personal gain and personal ego with Johnson, and misplaced confidence in his own capability. Also his Eton background and the sense of entitlement that has given him.

Whether history judges that he was a good or bad PM is probably not that important to him. It's the here and now and the prestige and power that goes with being the leader of what is still a major country in the world that I believe is important to him.

I could of course be wrong and he's a dedicated public servant who just wants what's best for the country and its people and will go to any lengths to achieve this but his record of telling porkies and general bullshitting suggests to me that he's in it for himself.

 

[meltonblue]

One thing I always think when people say that Theresa May, Boris Johnson, even Diane Abbott are thick is, if they were in the room with you and I... and the rest of this forum or with random people, they’d absolutely own the room.

It’s like when our CEO visits and she just has everyone right where she wants them, is able to take you to pieces if you bullshit her and just generally comes across as a higher intelligence to the whole room.

I think politicians, even those people don’t think much of, would be the same if not more.

Possibly not Dominic Raab though ;-)

I’m not sure how many you’ve met, but I wouldn’t put most MPs anywhere near CIOs. Their advisors and civil servants, perhaps! Remember they don’t have to know a lot about what they talk about, their intelligence is in the way they are able to deliver a message. That’s why they’re able to move departments entirely.

Take Cummings as an example, read a few of his blogs. I don’t believe for a second Johnson would understand or consider most of his thought processes, but then he hasn’t needed to.

I don’t consider them thick either, it’s just a different form of intelligence. I’d add my mp to your list of possibly nots too though(Robert Jenrick).

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

We should just invade Wales again, haven't done that in a good few centuries.

What have they got worth taking?
The only thing we got from them that I can think of is St.Patrick.

 

[blueparrot]

Even as a leaver I fail to see how you come to that conclusion??

He's a recent convert, like many converts they become extremely evangelistic.

 

[aguero93:20]

He's a ****

The shortened version.

 

[aguero93:20]

What have they got worth taking?
The only thing we got from them that I can think of is St.Patrick.

Good point, we have plenty of sheep.

 

[inbetween]

Setting aside what sort of seats you'd end up with if a party won by a single vote, with a minority government then quite literally yes, they could. Or at least, they would have to heavily water down their 'Labour' version to get Tory votes on side, or some variant their of. Of course if a government gets a large majority it has a stronger mandate from the public to compromise less (or not at all) on their policies, but this is always against the backdrop that should any particular policy piss off the electorate at large, we get to change our minds at the next general election.

Eh? Why would a remain victory mean a soft-Brexit? A close remain victory would be remaining, but as I said in my previous post, trying to address the concerns of the leavers within that framework. 0.1% leave victory would be leaving, but addressing concerns of the remainers. How much you give way to either side depends on the margins, just as it does at a GE.

Correct, which is why the next steps after should have been a public consultation of what type the public wanted, and not stupidly submitting A50 and starting all this "No deal better than a bad deal" nonsense.

Ok, but you're not giving people a proper choice of how to leave, because I haven't seen a single suggestion from any one of you that a super soft Brexit should be on the ballot. You just want a choice between Johnson's hard brexit, or an even harder no deal Brexit, both of which amount to more or less the same thing. Pandering to a small subset of the leave vote, disregarding much of it and completely disregarding the entire remain vote. No compromise what so ever. Metal Biker wanting EFTA is I think about as soft as it gets.

The EU gave us a list of acceptable deals years ago, one of which Johnson has now picked to move forward with as 'his'. If you want another referendum of only leave options then include all the options the EU offered, including the softest possible Brexit, and see which way it goes. I've no problem with that. Personally I still think whilst the maintaining the status quo is still an option it's only prudent to keep it as a choice, but I can also see why it shouldn't be.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/options-uk-trading-relationship-eu

Throw those on there and you have a deal.

I totally agree that the public should of been consulted on the type of deal because that would account for the kind of Brexit leavers and remainers wanted too. Unfortunately that didn't happen and I have no good words about how May handled her years in charge.

The only way out of this for me is a general election with all options on the table and that includes no deal. We then know where everyone stands and the people can finally have their say without any future vote rigging as is the plan currently by Parliamentary remainers.

If a second referendum with remain on it is voted for by GE then fair enough, I will cast my vote for remain because that is what I wanted 3 years ago. I however lost and that is why until then I will defend the option that gives what 'most' people wanted.

However, when it comes to a GE and not a referendum - I won't vote for Labour or the Lib Dems on the pure hypocrisy that they will offer a second referendum on the basis that they just assume we would vote to remain.

This is the arrogance people cannot stand. What happens if Labour get in and the second referendum results in the public opting for a deal that Labour as the governing party rejects!?! It's an utterly ridiculous position.

And as for the Lib Dems well they plan to circumvent everything altogether which would essentially destroy voting confidence for a large number for decades.

 

[Ban-jani]

I’m not sure how many you’ve met, but I wouldn’t put most MPs anywhere near CIOs. Their advisors and civil servants, perhaps! Remember they don’t have to know a lot about what they talk about, their intelligence is in the way they are able to deliver a message. That’s why they’re able to move departments entirely.

Take Cummings as an example, read a few of his blogs. I don’t believe for a second Johnson would understand or consider most of his thought processes, but then he hasn’t needed to.

I don’t consider them thick either, it’s just a different form of intelligence. I’d add my mp to your list of possibly nots too though(Robert Jenrick).

Their ability to hold a room is what I was getting at and standing out from the crowd as being someone with incredibly strong interpersonal skills, to almost own someone in a discussion.

If those of us who litter this thread regularly sat in a pub corner with Theresa May, we wouldn’t be able to lay a glove on her, in a debate.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

What have they got worth taking?
The only thing we got from them that I can think of is St.Patrick.

Stops England losing at rugby to them probably.

 

[George Hannah]

Is that not a bit racist George? or partyist at least.

you noticed the Irish spelling?

 

[Len Rum]

If we leave under this deal or left under May’s deal I’m relaxed. Still amazed May didn’t have the wit to get passed (well ok not that amazed). Just pointing out what it really means. For me, years in transition, what’s not to like?

You are obviously under estimating the possibility of crashing out at the end of 2020 which some punters think is the ERG's plan all along!

 

[Coatigan]

I totally agree with you. Which is why this silly idea that he's been hell bent on no deal, is so absolutely ridiculous.

I disagree there, personally. He is hell bent on whatever the flavour of the month is. When it is no deal, he will push that as hard as he pushed what he hinself said no PM would ever accept.

 

[Chippy_boy]

If we leave under this deal or left under May’s deal I’m relaxed.

That's where my head is at. So long as we have frictionless trade, then everything else is manageable as far as I am concerned. Many things will be worse - not least being poorer - but we'll cope. And you know there may just be some sunny uplands if we can keep to sensible moderately right wing or centre ground policies. Like NOT nationalising things for idealogical reasons and for which we have no money.

 

[Mike D]

I am not sure you are right to include Blair in your list, but never mind.

Playing devil's advocate here, the economic impacts of Brexit are only one dynamic. It's the dynamic that most concerned me personally and in large part why I voted to Remain. But for my sister-in-law for example, she was fully cognisant of the fact she would be worse off. For her, seeking control of our borders so that one day she would not have to feel like a foreigner in her own workplace (Tesco's night shift) was her prime motivation. Other people have grave reservations about the increasing federalisation of the EU, their dubious interpretation of democracy and the progressive erosion of our ability to self-govern. I was not concerned at all by this, but many were/are. So us being worse off is not in itself a reason to reject what people voted for.

As for your 2nd question, I think that is clear. The need to speed was in large part to minimise the opportunity for debate, and with that, for people hell bent on stopping it to get their way. What is in the best interests of the United Kingdom is a nuanced question. How do you value the ability to be able to determine our own laws and fiscal policies vs some potential loss of GDP and jobs? These is a subjective question, not an absolute one.

In your first point is one of the many fallacies Brexit sadly that was played upon by Vote Leave, Farage and the government with their targets on net migration targets etc. The problem with this type of racism its ingrained and you can't just put the genie back in once the bottle has been opened. Then you have to consider the fact that Cameron had been trying to get concessions from the EU which he had failed quite badly with it was quite hard for him to campaign for something he had grievances with.

The speed of the debate raised more questions from all MP's from all stripes than it resolved. It made no sense to do this when an extension was on its way

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Leaving is the only thing that will get us out of this mess now. The sooner you get your head around that, the better IMO.

It depends who US is and which particular MESS you're talking about. I think you will be in quite a mess for quite a time, but good luck to you. I do agree that you have to leave.
However I do fear that what this deal will do is create a much bigger mess in NI. It is basically rinsing their hands of responsibility and kicking the can down the road, which will do nothing to alleviate the uncertainty, both economically as well as ideologically.