Another new Brexit thread

[kevin horlocks wand]

Yes. It’s called the EU. You can not eliminate trade barriers or create a Single Market across a continent of nigh on 30 sovereign countries without a political framework to govern and regulate it. It also needs a judicial structure to enforce the laws that govern it. Following on from that econmic cooperation you will also inevitably use the framework to create cooperation in other areas be it defence or diplomacy as this enhances the power of the individual member nations via the group.

How the UK manages to live outside of a bigger Union that surrounds it geographically and on which it depends to function smoothly will be an immense and expensive challenge. The one saving grace is that we now recognise we will have new barriers to trade and to diplomatic relationships with our nearest neighbours and the ‘easiest deal in history’ rhetoric is less prevelant than it was three years ago.

you can . As you have banged on for years one of the great advantages of being in the eu is it allows the eu to have free trade deals with countries outside the eu. Are Canada and Japan subject to the political framework of the eu?

no.

So it’s possible for a country to be outside the eu and to have a free trade agreement with the eu but not be part political union or cough up billions to do so. Thanks.

 

[BobKowalski]

Beautifully written and hard to argue with. I have been a supporter of the EU since we voted in the 70s, but there has always been a conflict in my mind and this article illustrates that perfectly.
My mind has been changed by:
1. Working for three years across eight countries on the banking directives, where I found many arrogant, smug and dismissive people who were convinced they held the moral high ground. Not for nothing do their critics call them eurofanatics.
2. In order to save the Euro and protect the German banks, the EU threw southern states under a bus. Untold misery, poverty and unemployment were considered a price worth paying. Moral high ground? Don't make me laugh. It is a paradox that many on the left in Britain wholeheartedly condemn the austerity of the recent tory govs, bur are remainers with nothing to say about the EUs much more severe treatment of their own members.
3. The process of Brexit and the arguments around it. The process is a shambles and we are still only half way through it. On the EUs part, I think they believed they could stop it and caused much difficulty in that attempt. Theresa May hardly helped, being incapable of negotiation or much humanity. Then, of course, our own dear parliament wasted three years avoiding giving effect to the referendum result. Nothing was more telling than the Libdems, the Libdems mind you, going into a GE, promising to annul the referendum and cancel Brexit by fiat. (I have voted Liberal and its successors many times, but it will be a long time before I make that mistake again.)
I dont need to go over the arguments round Brexit; suffice it to say that those remainers (plenty on here) who threw around words like racist, stupid, little englanders, really ought to learn not to assume to know the motives of others, but rather enter into the argument. As a sceptical remainer, this was the most disappointing thing of all. They should remember that there are many right across Europe who are sceptical of the EU and fear its overarching arrogance. These critics are by no means confined to the right politically. Oh, and it really is about politics, not economics or trade.
So, enough from me, a sceptical remainer to a reluctant Brexiteer.

Yes. Greece quitting the Eurozone and the EU was a real eye opener for me too.

 

[Ardwick Green Blue]

It has a Parliament to give people more of a direct say in EU governance. Democracy I think they call it. People were complaining the EU lacked it apparently. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t I guess.

That’s one way of looking at it I suppose.

My view is that it shows that the EU was fundamentally not about trade but about political integration with a federal endpoint.

 

[hilts]

Is there another trading bloc anywhere in the world that has a Parliament?

I can’t think of one offhand.

I left Europe once wondering what was on the other side here is one of my holiday snaps

I gave it a very low score on Tripadvisor(1 star I think).

I have filled many containers of fuel this morning for the boot of the Corsa, got some pepper spray, a cats head for the bonnet, a spoon and some pedigree chum. I am searching for leather boots, pants and jackets as we speak. If anyone can point me to a decent supplier I feel bluemoon is the perfect place to ask. Worsley seems like the go to guy for this kind of thing.

 

[KS55]

Yes. Greece quitting the Eurozone and the EU was a real eye opener for me too.

BobKowalski posting something sensible would be a start. You are condemned out of your own mouth.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Is there another trading bloc anywhere in the world that has a Parliament?

I can’t think of one offhand.

'A Parliament of Rooks'

 

[Saddleworth2]

I suppose on the plus side The NHS will be getting a payment of £350 million in its bank account tomorrow. It will wont it?

Hehawhehaw....

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

That’s one way of looking at it I suppose.

My view is that it shows that the EU was fundamentally not about trade but about political integration with a federal endpoint.

Indeed

 

[BobKowalski]

you can . As you have banged on for years one of the great advantages of being in the eu is it allows the eu to have free trade deals with countries outside the eu. Are Canada and Japan subject to the political framework of the eu?

no.

So it’s possible for a country to be outside the eu and to have a free trade agreement with the eu but not be part political union or cough up billions to do so. Thanks.

Canada has a free trade agreement. It also has tariff quotas and has to complete document and identity checks on all good consignments and 10% of all consignments are physically checked. As Gove said today a trade deal with the EU will involve more regulation and bureaucracy. All of this will also apply to internal UK trade between GB and NI.

The UK accepts that there will be new barriers to trade. The only question now is how high and how thick those barriers will be.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Canada has a free trade agreement. It also has tariff quotas and has to complete document and identity checks on all good consignments and 10% of all consignments are physically checked. As Gove said today a trade deal with the EU will involve more regulation and bureaucracy. All of this will also apply to internal UK trade between GB and NI.

The UK accepts that there will be new barriers to trade. The only question now is how high and how thick those barriers will be.

indeed , and how many fish we give the French.

there will be a deal though.

 

[joe123]

That’s one way of looking at it I suppose.

My view is that it shows that the EU was fundamentally not about trade but about political integration with a federal endpoint.

The start of it, the Treaty of Rome, was about peace and security. It was signed in 1957, but I’m glad you’ve had the revelation it’s not just about trade.

 

[BobKowalski]

BobKowalski posting something sensible would be a start. You are condemned out of your own mouth.

You mean Greece et al haven’t quit the Eurozone or EU after their poor treatment at the hands of ‘ze Germans’? Well good of us to fall on that sword in outraged protest I guess. Very noble.

 

[Ardwick Green Blue]

UK?
USA?
(half joking).

Poor examples. They are nation states with an internal devolved / federal structure.

Germany is very similar to the US for instance as it has state parliaments (its prefix is Federal Republic of....)

 

[blueinsa]

The start of it, the Treaty of Rome, was about peace and security. It was signed in 1957, but I’m glad you’ve had the revelation it’s not just about trade.

Its no revelation when its been at the forefront of your opposition to the EU for years.

Nice to see remainers suddenly admitting it though rather than dismissing it as leave fantasy and scare stories.

 

[Ardwick Green Blue]

The start of it, the Treaty of Rome, was about peace and security. It was signed in 1957, but I’m glad you’ve had the revelation it’s not just about trade.

So it never was a trading bloc then :)

 

[joe123]

Its no revelation when its been at the forefront of your opposition to the EU for years.

Nice to see remainers suddenly admitting it though rather than dismissing it as leave fantasy and scare stories.

I'm not sure if this is a wind up or not, but I don't think anyone ever claimed the EU was purely about trade.

 

[Blue Hefner]

You blame single mothers and poor people for all your ills? Have you tried not being a ****:-)

No, not me. More the general media narrative in this country.

 

[BobKowalski]

indeed , and how many fish we give the French.

there will be a deal though.

No one is disputing that. I’m pointing out an FTA is a poor substitute for Single Market and Custom Union membership. We pay billions to outsource admin on trade and for governance of a Single Market that allows UK businesses to trade freely across the continent. We will now pay billions to duplicate that admin and to impose additional regulations and cost on UK businesses including on internal UK trade between GB and NI.

This is what Brexit means. As long as people accept what it means and accept the costs involved then I’m fine. Refusing to acknowledge the reality is what ticks me off not the reality itself.

 

[blueinsa]

I'm not sure if this is a wind up or not, but I don't think anyone ever claimed the EU was purely about trade.

In relation to this forum and its many threads and discussions over the last 3/4 years id say that's not correct at all but nice try all the same.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

I'm not sure if this is a wind up or not, but I don't think anyone ever claimed the EU was purely about trade.

I am sorry but many prominent posters on her argue that it is all about trade and that in order to create a trading bloc you need a parliament a political system, laws and regulations

have a look at bobs posts today. It’s all about trade in order to be a successful trading bloc apparently you need a big political system to go with it.