Another new Brexit thread

[BlueAnorak]

And this is why in three years we have gone from a ‘great new deal with all the benefits like frictionless trade and none of the obligations’ to accepting there will be trade barriers and a nice new internal customs border in our own Union. And we paid £39 billion for the privilege.

You guys endlessly point out Brexit isn’t about trade and you endlessly predict that 27 other nations will do what we want because of...trade. How many times did ‘trade’ persuade the EU to retreat from its three core demands in the Withdrawal Agreement?

It isn't about trade it's about independence.
Contrary to what doomsayers think, the UK will do fine without being in the EE, SM or CU or subject to the ECJ.
The EU will do fine without the UK, though the dreadful problem of the Euro will minimise EU economic growth.
If both sides come to a trade deal then great. Free trade is generally a good thing. If they don't it really won't be anywhere near as big a deal as Remainers think as the UK can implement economic policies to prevent economic damage.
The £13bn of tariffs on EU goods will damage EU exports to the UK, whereas the £5bn of tariffs on UK goods can be overcome by investment grants (deferred taxation) and/or lower business taxes.
Also business ERP (or similar software packages) come with customs modules that generate the paperwork required to export across borders so the only issue is the time to check goods that actually averages 30 seconds per container for exports to the US from the UK.
The main issue will be many businesses moving from Channel Lorry transport to Container transport (not too bad a thing as it is certainly greener) and small companies who only export to the EU requiring customs agents. Again all these issues can be dealt with, given a roll out plan which now exists.
And yes I know a lot about ERP software.

 

[mcfc1632]

Started early today? Brexit must be keeping some of you up at night.

Morning!!

Yet again the worry of Brexit is causing me to lose sleep

There have been so many predictions of doom and gloom I feel the need to be up scouring the media outlets for the signs of disaster that are stubbornly refusing to appear

I do not know whether to feel heartened or cheated - I was promised that there would be damage and it would be immediate and profound - where is it?

Can it be that people were scaremongering/bedwetting?

 

[mcfc1632]

This will be the final act of remainers who've had to live with nearly 4 years of 'you've lost .... get over it' with absolutely no movement towards compromise .........a mantra that is still being shouted today from the rooftops.

You do just make stuff up

If this forum is anything to go by the reality is nothing like you describe

 

[mcfc1632]

mcfc1632 said: We have learned over the years:

Irish Nationalism, Scottish Nationalism and EU 'nationalism' = something noble and to be greatly admired

English people showing a bit of care about what happens to them = Something to be decried as 'little Englander' / jingoism
(nothing remotely as strong as deserving the label nationalism)

I have been shocked at how strong these sentiments are on here - and just how much of a desire some people have to run their country down.



Reluctant as I am to get drawn into this, as I have stated previously to mcfc1632 I don't see anything wrong with English nationalism or national pride.
I would say own it and take it away from those that give it a bad name. Celebrate it. It doesn't need to be exclusive.
There are differences however between Scottish and Irish nationalism. Scottish and Irish nationalism manifest themselves as wanting to break away from the union...that is the UK, not the EU.
English nationalism seems to want to break from the EU but not the UK.
Regarding the dilution of your national culture? Mexico1970, are you talking of your English culture specifically or are you talking of your British culture?
Because I would say the dilution of your English culture has more to do with your British Empire legacy than anything else.
You colonize half the world and call it British, then don't be surprised that things are going to change culturally when they come home to the motherland.

There we have reference to colonizing and empire. It is pretty much exclusively Remainers that make such references

There is a lot of bollocks (not aimed at you) posted by people that are without the ability, IMO, to present arguments coherently. There has been a trait over years of Remainers associating Leave supporters to anything that would be viewed as a 'negative theme' and stating that Brexit is driven by people hankering after days of yore fits that shallow level of thinking - it is just bollocks and demonstrates ignorance

The desire to leave the EU is the desire to leave a bloated and increasingly politically driven construct based on the experience of past decades and the ability to assess the journey of the next decades

Reference is made by Remainers to 'days of yore' as an attempt, in their narrow scope of analysis, to substantiate that:

Irish Nationalism, Scottish Nationalism and EU 'nationalism' = something noble and to be greatly admired

English people showing a bit of care about what happens to them = Something to be decried as 'little Englander' / jingoism'

It could be readily argued that all these references to empire and colonizing is in reality the need for some to hanker back to those days long gone to justify their sense of grievance in 2020. There seems to be a desire for the 2020 citizens of the UK to both suffer and apologize for history.

Re your statement that "English nationalism seems to want to break from the EU but not the UK."

Apart from being a statement of the obvious because the topic is EU membership - I assume that the intent is to reflect that the English want to retain residual parts of an Empire

If that is the case it is not borne out by the reality of this century​

​

 

[mcfc1632]

For the record, again...im English..British... but have lived here since 1986...NI is basically being cut off from GB not through a Border Poll or will of the people, but because of English Nationalism

Are you sure that the cause is not predominantly the insistence of the EU?

 

[mcfc1632]

You have the same say any other member of the union has.
Nationalism is what it is whether it’s Scottish or English.
If English nationalists wanted they could canvas for an English referendum but I think they’d find it as difficult to get as the Scots.
It sounds like the break up wouldn’t upset you but you’d like it to be someone else’s fault.
If English nationalism wants to change it’s image, that you think is portrayed badly, then people like yourself need to define what it is you are proud of and what it is you desire.
Again not a criticism but Scottish or Irish nationalists are very clear about what they want.
I’m saying English nationalism leads to the same thing, but you can’t blame others for the result.

But the reality is quite simple

The truth is simply what started these exchanges - some posters wish to demean the consideration of English people of what just might be in their best interests. There is no substantive/credible focal point for an English nationalist movement as there has been for Scottish nationalism with the SNP.

We English are not agitating for anything other than to Leave an increasingly political construct - the bollocks posted is just lazy distraction by Remainers and nationalists of other countries.

 

[mcfc1632]

The claim was the vast majority though which as I said earlier is pish. Unless you can substantiate it.

Fair enough

Replace vast majority with "some of the more vocal Remain posters"

 

[mcfc1632]

This really is an appalling calumny. It's not Remainers who've put the country at such risk.

Calumny?

Nope - that is what Remainers have been doing for 4 years

I just speak as I find

 

[mcfc1632]

It isn't about trade it's about independence.
Contrary to what doomsayers think, the UK will do fine without being in the EE, SM or CU or subject to the ECJ.
The EU will do fine without the UK, though the dreadful problem of the Euro will minimise EU economic growth.
If both sides come to a trade deal then great. Free trade is generally a good thing. If they don't it really won't be anywhere near as big a deal as Remainers think as the UK can implement economic policies to prevent economic damage.
The £13bn of tariffs on EU goods will damage EU exports to the UK, whereas the £5bn of tariffs on UK goods can be overcome by investment grants (deferred taxation) and/or lower business taxes.
Also business ERP (or similar software packages) come with customs modules that generate the paperwork required to export across borders so the only issue is the time to check goods that actually averages 30 seconds per container for exports to the US from the UK.
The main issue will be many businesses moving from Channel Lorry transport to Container transport (not too bad a thing as it is certainly greener) and small companies who only export to the EU requiring customs agents. Again all these issues can be dealt with, given a roll out plan which now exists.
And yes I know a lot about ERP software.

There you go - bursting the doom and gloom bubble

 

[Vic]

Calumny?

Nope - that is what Remainers have been doing for 4 years

I just speak as I find

You don't. You wouldn't get away with it.

You post as you troll.

And you'd just confessed to the calumny by admitting that you couldn't substantiate the "vast majority" nonsense.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Worth a listen irrespective of what view you have. Some will enjoy the logic, some the salty tears.

Another hectoring know all who contributed in no small way to the election result.
Keep it up Jimbo

 

[Saddleworth2]

Another hectoring know all who contributed in no small way to the election result.
Keep it up Jimbo

Not everyone’s cup of tea, I agree with you. I find him a breath of fresh air in a mainly fetid media. His approach to base arguments around facts and logic is not for everyone granted.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Not everyone’s cup of tea, I agree with you. I find him a breath of fresh air in a mainly fetid media. His approach to base arguments around facts and logic is not for everyone granted.

His smugness uses expert evidence and predictions he agrees with as facts.

he lets his followers who worship on on to cheer him on.

he then let’s his producer to let the odd right wing cockney taxi driver on for James to ridicule now and then.

his show is a place of misery now brexit is lost although I have to say his question and answer on a Thursday is a good show.

his smugness wrote a book called “how to be right “ even piers Morgan isn’t that arrogant.

 

[Saddleworth2]

His smugness uses expert evidence and predictions he agrees with as facts.

he lets his followers who worship on on to cheer him on.

he then let’s his producer to let the odd right wing cockney taxi driver on for James to ridicule now and then.

his show is a place of misery now brexit is lost although I have to say his question and answer on a Thursday is a good show.

his smugness wrote a book called “how to be right “ even piers Morgan isn’t that arrogant.

Is one perspective. I find the Brexiteers that his producers ‘let on’ to discuss their views to be a pretty representative sample of those I encounter in real life ( albeit they are quite hard to find in Scotland) and on here (give or take a couple) and in other media displays (question time etc etc).

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Not everyone’s cup of tea, I agree with you. I find him a breath of fresh air in a mainly fetid media. His approach to base arguments around facts and logic is not for everyone granted.

The facts and logic he espouses are selected and embellished by him, when confronted with anyone
contesting his selections, he resorts to bluster and ridicule, which appeals his followers, which is fine, we can take it.
Unlike many, who rail against Conservative speakers, media etc; I don't want him sanctioned, banned, censored,
or any restrictions placed upon him, he can carry on as long as folk are willing to listen.
Particularly so, as his ilk advance the alternative in such a satisfying way.

 

[blueinsa]

Not everyone’s cup of tea, I agree with you. I find him a breath of fresh air in a mainly fetid media. His approach to base arguments around facts and logic is not for everyone granted.

You actually meant to say opinions you agree with yes?

 

[BobKowalski]

It isn't about trade it's about independence.
Contrary to what doomsayers think, the UK will do fine without being in the EE, SM or CU or subject to the ECJ.
The EU will do fine without the UK, though the dreadful problem of the Euro will minimise EU economic growth.
If both sides come to a trade deal then great. Free trade is generally a good thing. If they don't it really won't be anywhere near as big a deal as Remainers think as the UK can implement economic policies to prevent economic damage.
The £13bn of tariffs on EU goods will damage EU exports to the UK, whereas the £5bn of tariffs on UK goods can be overcome by investment grants (deferred taxation) and/or lower business taxes.
Also business ERP (or similar software packages) come with customs modules that generate the paperwork required to export across borders so the only issue is the time to check goods that actually averages 30 seconds per container for exports to the US from the UK.
The main issue will be many businesses moving from Channel Lorry transport to Container transport (not too bad a thing as it is certainly greener) and small companies who only export to the EU requiring customs agents. Again all these issues can be dealt with, given a roll out plan which now exists.
And yes I know a lot about ERP software.

We are independent. You reckon Ukraine which is fighting in an actual conflict with Russia thinks joining the EU means they lose their ‘independence’? There are countries who genuinely know what it is like to fight for their independence and the UK, for whom the fight for ‘independence’ is just cosplay.

I am also pumped at the idea we will be levying a £13 billion tax on UK consumers, subsidising UK industry and imposing additional red tape. Definitely in the ‘win’ column.

Three years ago we rejected a comprehensjve FTA as not fit for purpose and now a basic FTA is the main prize. How quickly our ambitions shrank.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Come on, noone considers the Welsh....

Well, yes, that goes without saying ;)

 

[Saddleworth2]

You actually meant to say opinions you agree with yes?

Not 100% but in the main. But then I’m a facts and logic kind of guy. I can’t help myself. :-)

 

[blueinsa]

Not 100% but in the main. But then I’m a facts and logic kind of guy. I can’t help myself. :-)

Its when the facts and logic are up for debate the issues creep in ;-)