Another new Brexit thread

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Let's pretend the Russians ddi influence the referednum and this report proved it. Would any of you who still thinl Brexit is a good idea care?
 
The level of success or not isn’t really the question - as the report itself says it’s impossible to answer anyway. It’s why I don’t really get why it’s being debated anyway, ultimately the outcome is what it is regardless.

The real question is why were they wanting to try and interfere. That and following the report yesterday, why wasn’t that interference properly investigated by any department. It may well have been failures in process, but ultimately why wasn’t that process being looked at as well then.
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
bobs back online so they have their confidence back.
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Remoaners right now:
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Ancient Citizen said:
You were saying that this report, which you must have mentioned
a million times, and bemoaned the fact that it was still not out, would
prove what you wanted. So, now that it's done nothing of the sort, it's
because the government didn't look for it.
Never mind though, you can now tell the world about the evidence you have.
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@Saddleworth2

This is the same place I am at

It is quite reasonable to expect some posters to account for, or at least acknowledge, the inaccuracies of their previous posts before lazily shooting off on other tangents

I am not saying that you are making valid points that should be addressed - but you have just been helping that prevarication and hiding
 
Blue Hefner said:
Let's pretend the Russians ddi influence the referednum and this report proved it. Would any of you who still thinl Brexit is a good idea care?
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Yes I would care and would support another vote as a minimum with us putting the whole thing on hold until that has happened.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
You're asking a lot there, mate.
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It should be the case - there is not some 'penance' associated to just accepting that he (and others) have been wrong for a long time

Baffles me why people cannot bring themselves to just admit to making mistakes - it probably explains why some Remainers are still fighting the 2016 campaign - they just want to be right.
 
All this interfering in our elections has really been a frustrating of time
for the interferers.

Obama, US President, interfered, - got given the finger.

EU, - No Ta.

Billionaire Hungarian Yank, Pumps millions into the remain campaign,
- May as well have pissed it up a wall.

The Russians, - So secretive, nobody knows what they did, but they
must have done it. Possible interference in Scots referendum, - if
wanting the Jocks to remain in the Union was their intention, a resounding
success.


Then the home grown interferers...

David Cameron, - lost his job.
The Conservative party, - ended up with a minus majority.
The Labour Party, - absolutely slaughtered.
Hugh Grant, - Supported Remain candidates, all battered at the election.
Steve Coogan, Emma Thompson, Owen Jones, - see Hugh Grant.

All we need now is a little more interfering, it's worked a treat so far.
 
meltonblue said:
The level of success or not isn’t really the question (yes... it is, as it was claimed that the brexit result is fraudlent on that basis)- as the report itself says it’s impossible to answer anyway. (correct, so why is it being regarded as a "brexit" issue, when it has nothing to do with the referendum result, yet remoaners are trying to tie it together?) It’s why I don’t really get why it’s being debated anyway, ultimately the outcome is what it is regardless. (Then do what we're all doing and telling those who believe it is that it's pointless.)

The real question is why were they wanting to try and interfere. (easy; they want a weakened UK. They supported Scotland leaving the UK, they supported UK leaving the EU. Anything that weakens their rivals, they support. They've been doing it since the '40s) That and following the report yesterday, why wasn’t that interference properly investigated by any department. It may well have been failures in process, but ultimately why wasn’t that process being looked at as well then.(Only those who see brexit as a negative outcome are tying this to the brexit vote. Russia backs any decision that they think will weaken the UK. It could easily be interpreted that Russia supported remaining because an independent UK would be more of a threat to Russia, as the UK was holding back the EU's plans for federalisation, and a federal EU is a HUGE threat to Russia. Those of us who do not see brexit weakening the UK don't get the connection. Unless of course you support the Russians conclusion...)
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mcfc1632 said:
If you had been on the Leave side of the argument for the last 4 years you would have a far better understanding of what it is to be the target of pompous/snide/insulting posts.

You have - I humbly suggest - a repeated blind spot on this thread.....

You jump in and get involved in points that are aimed elsewhere - and you are wholly inconsistent in what you react to or pull up - this habit does you no favours

It renders all the good stuff you post far less relevant and impactful

My position has been simple and clear - so please answer these questions - without more whataboutery and distraction - simple yes or no please......

Did @Ifwecouldjust....... post:

??

2/ Does the report reflect evidence that would support the level of certainty expressed by him in that post??

If the answers are anything other than respectively Yes and No - then I will leave you to it.

If they are Yes and No then you are confirming the thrust of what I have been saying on this subject today.

@Ifwecouldjust....... is running and hiding - and not finding the 'character' to just admit the obvious truth.

My comments have largely been about this simple fact..... and it is a simple fact and no prevarication and whataboutery can distract from that...

Remainers - including @Ifwecouldjust....... have been saying for a long time that the report would demonstrate that there was interference

The report does not

They were wrong

Yes, there are other questions that the report raises - but these are facts - and it would be a pleasant change to see people just accept that they were wrong with earlier comments before pompously ploughing on with fresh inaccuracies

You have an obsession of getting in the way and taking on the case for others - as I say it does you no favours

I will happily answer the separate, but related, questions that you posed when I see an answer to mine - and I see @Ifwecouldjust....... and others admit that they were wrong - afterall I have been making points mainly different to the ones you are making and I made my first before the whataboutery and distraction
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And I have been making points different to the ones you ask me about. Bit of an impasse huh?
 
Blue Hefner said:
Let's pretend the Russians ddi influence the referednum and this report proved it. Would any of you who still thinl Brexit is a good idea care?
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If it was proven that the results were fraudulent votes (i.e. created) and that the 1.6m winning margin was in fact fabricated and a complete error of non-existant votes, i'd demand the referendum be run again.

But that is not what is happening is it. They're saying that people online have been "influenced" to vote a certain way. That does not make a vote fraudulent as the public still exercises free will when in the voting booth, where nobody can be influenced.

Someone saying "vote for this" online and using whatever tactics they can to do so, does not make that persons vote fraudulent. That could be said for every single vote cast in every election and referendum in history.

I love how it's also now changed to "let's pretend..." Let's pretend that the Russians actually influenced remainers to vote remain on the basis they helped portray leaving as something heinous and that millions of remainers were influenced to vote against how they originally intended. Would YOU now state that the remain case was being way over represented and that actually leaving the EU was what the vast majority of the electorate wants?
 

It would be more of a stretch to support that interpretation of it given there’s no evidence of it though surely?

I’ve already said a few times it isn’t specifically a brexit issue. On the referendum though, the evidence in the first report was all about Russia backing pro leave positions. If people are still focussed on brexit, then the next logical question to ask is why.

More widely though, for those people in roles there to protect our democratic processes, the question has to be how do they stop it in general regardless of the intentions.

Unfortunately we have a PM with no interest in that though. He’s doing Putins job for him.
 
meltonblue said:
On the referendum though, the evidence in the first report was all about Russia backing pro leave positions. If people are still focussed on brexit, then the next logical question to ask is why.
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No shit they backed it as they don't like the EU. Asking why is like asking why Obama and thus the USA backed us remaining at the time.

Its called politics.

You cant accept the USA holding a position and being allowed to express it but demand Russia doesn't.

Its funny but many of you would now demand Trump and the USA be treated no differently to Russia and why? Politics.
 
blueinsa said:
No shit they backed it as they don't like the EU. Asking why is like asking why Obama and thus the USA backed us remaining at the time.

Its called politics.

You cant accept the USA holding a position and being allowed to express it but demand Russia doesn't.

Its funny but many of you would now demand Trump and the USA be treated no differently to Russia and why? Politics.
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They didn’t just back it though did they, the whole point is they went further in trying to interfere in both referendums and elections. That’s why we have this report in the first place. It wasn’t just overt, like Obama or the US, if it was there’d be nothing to investigate.

Anyone’s allowed an opinion, that’s not the question or the issue, which is why it’s such a false comparable.
 
meltonblue said:
It would be more of a stretch to support that interpretation of it given there’s no evidence of it though surely?

I’ve already said a few times it isn’t specifically a brexit issue. On the referendum though, the evidence in the first report was all about Russia backing pro leave positions. If people are still focussed on brexit, then the next logical question to ask is why.

More widely though, for those people in roles there to protect our democratic processes, the question has to be how do they stop it in general regardless of the intentions.

Unfortunately we have a PM with no interest in that though. He’s doing Putins job for him.
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"No evidence of it..."

There's a lot of that going around. A bit like the "interference" from non-UK citizens of EU nations on twitter and facebook that showed support of Remain that influenced many people, yet nothing is being said about that strangely enough.

How do they stop what? People giving their opinions? People have free will; they are free to listen to others opinions and either support or reject them. We already know what the intentions are of those who back a campaign or reject it. Its to serve their own interests.

The simple fact remains that once the electorate is in the voting booth casting their vote, there is NO influence other than the conclusions of the voter at that given moment. They could have been 99% remain and then at the last second voted leave. It would still be valid.

The Russian Boogeyman claim is a pathetic and desperate attempt to suggest that because Russia wants to see the UK weakened, and remainers believe brexit will weaken the UK, that the two are connected and worked to influence gullible voters. It's the "lEaVe WaS a LiE!"/Cambridge Analytica bullshit all over again from 2017.
 
hgblue said:
They’ve lost the plot. Seems the EU dictating terms to the UK isn’t going well, and the one big happy family now the Brits have left isn’t exactly panning out either. It’s going to be fun watching how the EU goes over the next few years...
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Dude, the EU just agreed a historic recovery package which for the first time allows the EU to utilise its own borrowing mechanisms as well as raising its own levies on plastic waste, carbon & the digital economy which potentially is a major shift in the fiscal role of the EU. This is historic stuff irrespective of how you view the EU.

And our fortunes are linked to the EU’s. Twenty-seven countries on our doorstep going tits up is going to hurt. Talk about living in a bubble.
 
meltonblue said:
They didn’t just back it though did they, the whole point is they went further in trying to interfere in both referendums and elections. That’s why we have this report in the first place. It wasn’t just overt, like Obama or the US, if it was there’d be nothing to investigate.

Anyone’s allowed an opinion, that’s not the question or the issue, which is why it’s such a false comparable.
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Russia has ALWAYS done that with every UK/US/EU political event. They've never been directly responsible for changing the outcome of a vote, however.

That. Is. The. Point. Of. The. Scepticism.

Are you suggesting that Russia "hacked" the ballot boxes on the day of the referendum, had agents slip a few "fake" 'leave the EU' votes, and started surreptitiously burning remain ones to alter the total tally?
 
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