Another new Brexit thread

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Thanks for the quote that proves my point.
As for Maternity leave and pay, if you look into the detail it’s not a direct comparison.
Without dissecting the facts about holidays which now appear to be brushed aside, why is a 14 week minimum maternity pay, and a 20 day minimum holiday
pay, somehow something that is superior to the UK's entitlements?
The discussion was around someone's father not accepting the EU as the instigator of benign worker protections, that particular parent is not wrong is he?
 
Aren't those policies a bit socialist?

All adhered to by a Tory government as well because any attempt to lessen workers rights would be political suicide.

Is there a point here because claiming we wouldn't have these rights without the EU is wrong, claiming if we leave the EU they will disappear is wrong and claiming Tories will get rid regardless is wrong as well.
 
All adhered to by a Tory government as well because any attempt to lessen workers rights would be political suicide.

Is there a point here because claiming we wouldn't have these rights without the EU is wrong, claiming if we leave the EU they will disappear is wrong and claiming Tories will get rid regardless is wrong as well.
Everything is wrong, some still need their parents to point it out.
 
That may be but no one can be happy about 7000 job losses And god alone knows how many more when that ripples through. Hopefully they will remember when next they put a pencil to a ballot paper. Please god they have a decent choice to make next time.

Mate - I live nearby - I have neighbours who work in jobs that are in the plant or supply the plant. In the run up to the referendum they were ALL mad for vote Leave - main reason the quoted was immigration. When you pointed out they had just about the smallest immigrant population in the UK that didn't matter to them - they idolised Farage and UKIP.

Fast forward to now and they are all shitting tin. The pandemic has decimated sales, production is down and jobs will go anyway - will just depend on the speed and extent of any recovery. But they know if the plant goes it will hit Wearside like the loss of ship building did and the loss of mining in the Wear valley did - the level of buyers regret has to be seen to be believed - the wives of two guys I know work there went on a candlelit vigil at the plant recently but as I say in 2016 they knew what they wanted and got it - at two GE's where they could have signalled they wanted a change of direction they didn't so right up until last December they were happy with Brexit as pigs in shit - it was all project fear.

Problem is they have woken up, the hangover has worn off, they have found they have an empty wallet a tattoo has suddenly appeared on their arses and when they piss it hurts .............. and they are blaming it all on their mates.
 
well Sunderland and surrounding areas were solid Leave areas - they knew what they were voting for - we know that because they keep telling us so fuck 'em - they are getting what they wanted.
When it closes, and that closure occurs directly because of Brexit, you can then
start crowing, until then, don't go telling them what their rights are for god's sake.
 
When it closes, and that closure occurs directly because of Brexit, you can then
start crowing, until then, don't go telling them what their rights are for god's sake.

It will be directly as a result of a No Deal Brexit - NISSAN bosses have repeatedly warned them


 
Mate - I live nearby - I have neighbours who work in jobs that are in the plant or supply the plant. In the run up to the referendum they were ALL mad for vote Leave - main reason the quoted was immigration. When you pointed out they had just about the smallest immigrant population in the UK that didn't matter to them - they idolised Farage and UKIP.

Fast forward to now and they are all shitting tin. The pandemic has decimated sales, production is down and jobs will go anyway - will just depend on the speed and extent of any recovery. But they know if the plant goes it will hit Wearside like the loss of ship building did and the loss of mining in the Wear valley did - the level of buyers regret has to be seen to be believed - the wives of two guys I know work there went on a candlelit vigil at the plant recently but as I say in 2016 they knew what they wanted and got it - at two GE's where they could have signalled they wanted a change of direction they didn't so right up until last December they were happy with Brexit as pigs in shit - it was all project fear.

Problem is they have woken up, the hangover has worn off, they have found they have an empty wallet a tattoo has suddenly appeared on their arses and when they piss it hurts .............. and they are blaming it all on their mates.

Either way, it’s not nice to see anyone lose their jobs never mind 7 thousand, regardless of their own actions of self harm which caused it

Saying ‘I told you so’ doesn’t help anyone. Hopefully they will turn their anger to the snake oil salesman that convinced them it was a good idea rather than the fringe group of society which they will be encouraged to blame
 
It will be directly as a result of a No Deal Brexit - NISSAN bosses have repeatedly warned them


Yes, we've all seen and heard that. If and when that happens, as I said, pile on.
Ever since the referendum each and every doom scenario has fizzled to jack shit,
in fact most couldn't have been more wrong. More forecasts from remainers are going to be viewed exactly the same as the dozens of others have.
 
Either way, it’s not nice to see anyone lose their jobs never mind 7 thousand, regardless of their own actions of self harm which caused it

Saying ‘I told you so’ doesn’t help anyone. Hopefully they will turn their anger to the snake oil salesman that convinced them it was a good idea rather than the fringe group of society which they will be encouraged to blame


That 7k is only those who work at the plant - local TV estimates job losses across the country linked to closeure would be in the region of 25-30k
 
That 7k is only those who work at the plant - local TV estimates job losses across the country linked to closeure would be in the region of 25-30k

The knock on effect would no doubt be bigger as supporting industries and jobs are lost but right now, brexit si the least of the car industries problems as environmental changes demand a massive refocus on future production and the covid pandemic and its economic costs wreak havoc globally n not just the car industry.
 
Mate - I live nearby - I have neighbours who work in jobs that are in the plant or supply the plant. In the run up to the referendum they were ALL mad for vote Leave - main reason the quoted was immigration. When you pointed out they had just about the smallest immigrant population in the UK that didn't matter to them - they idolised Farage and UKIP.

Fast forward to now and they are all shitting tin. The pandemic has decimated sales, production is down and jobs will go anyway - will just depend on the speed and extent of any recovery. But they know if the plant goes it will hit Wearside like the loss of ship building did and the loss of mining in the Wear valley did - the level of buyers regret has to be seen to be believed - the wives of two guys I know work there went on a candlelit vigil at the plant recently but as I say in 2016 they knew what they wanted and got it - at two GE's where they could have signalled they wanted a change of direction they didn't so right up until last December they were happy with Brexit as pigs in shit - it was all project fear.

Problem is they have woken up, the hangover has worn off, they have found they have an empty wallet a tattoo has suddenly appeared on their arses and when they piss it hurts .............. and they are blaming it all on their mates.
How do they rationalise it to themselves? Who do they blame other than Johnson, Farage and the others?
 
How do they rationalise it to themselves? Who do they blame other than Johnson, Farage and the others?

various ways really - I have seen heard and read various theories from yes blaming Johnson and Farage for lying to blame being apportioned to Remain for not getting "the truth" to them. When its pointed out that when "the truth" was floated it was labelled Project Fear the response is often " well it was Project Fear back then " - can't really rationalise anything with someone with those views.
 
Without dissecting the facts about holidays which now appear to be brushed aside, why is a 14 week minimum maternity pay, and a 20 day minimum holiday
pay, somehow something that is superior to the UK's entitlements?
The discussion was around someone's father not accepting the EU as the instigator of benign worker protections, that particular parent is not wrong is he?
You need to dissect the facts to do a proper comparison. Broad brush comparisons miss out out a lot of the relevant detail.
For example UK statutory maternity pay is as follows:
“Statutory Maternity Pay (SMP) is paid for up to 39 weeks. You get:
90% of your average weekly earnings (before tax) for the first 6 weeks
£151.20 or 90% of your average weekly earnings (whichever is lower) for the next 33 weeks”
In the EU it varies country to country so a direct comparison is not possible, with some better and some not as good.

Our minimum holidays exactly meet the EU requirements but our paid public holidays are flexible so they get added on to the 20.
 
Talking of blame...

Arf.



Frosty the Showman is quoted as saying that the biggest threat to getting an FTA agreed is that time is running out.............this from the guy who bragged that we weren't going to ask for an extension......we are all extra's in a long episode of The Thick of It.
 
The knock on effect would no doubt be bigger as supporting industries and jobs are lost but right now, brexit si the least of the car industries problems as environmental changes demand a massive refocus on future production and the covid pandemic and its economic costs wreak havoc globally n not just the car industry.
Post referendum we went from expected expansion of the car industry (from already high levels) to drastic contraction. You can't blame it all on electric cars and a pandemic that hadn't even started.
 
Re workers' rights, I turn to a specialist QC

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Who needs European Employment Rights? We all do.

I logged into Twitter and someone had posted this image into my timeline. My eyes nearly rolled out of their sockets. The Brexit debate could scarcely be said to have been characterised by the accuracy and honesty of the arguments advanced, but this seems to me to be very seriously misleading.

I am going to deal with each of the points made. But two general points can be made immediately. First, the EU does not have the power to regulate Employment Rights generally. It is perverse to criticise the EU for not creating a right to a minimum wage where Member States have been scrupulous to ensure it does not have the power to do so. Second, the EU law sets a floor not a ceiling. There is nothing to stop the UK having more generous rights whilst remaining a member of the EU. The only thing continued membership prevents is having less generous rights.

Right to Holidays

The Holidays with Pay Act 1938 did not create a general right to paid holiday. It applied only to those workers who had their minimum wages set by a wage regulating authority (section 1(1)). Any worker whose pay was fixed under the Trade Boards Acts 1909 and 1918 or the Agricultural Wages (Regulation) Act 1924 were not to be entitled to more than a week’s paid leave in each year and the former were not to be allowed to take more than three consecutive days of leave (Section 1(2)).

The relevant part of the Act was repealed in 1975. By 1997 there was no statutory right to paid annual leave (unless you were an agricultural worker). That position changed as a result of the Working Time Regulations 1998. The Regulations were intended to implement the Working Time Directive 93/104/EC.

The Directive created, for the first time, a right to four weeks’ annual leave for all employees.

The UK fought tooth and nail against the introduction of the Directive. It went to the European Court of Justice in an attempt to get it annulled. The attempt failed (see United Kingdom v Council of the European Union C-84/94).

It is true that the UK subsequently increased the entitlement by 1.6 weeks. The reason for the increase was that UK employers had insisted that bank holidays should count towards the four week entitlement. The significant point here is, as stressed above, that the Directive does not prevent the UK being more generous. It does, however, prevent the UK being less generous. It sets a floor not a ceiling.

So in Bear Scotland Ltd v Fulton UKEATS/0047/13, the Employment Appeal Tribunal made the latest in a series of findings that the UK had failed properly to implement the entitlement to paid annual leave. The Working Time Directive was used to bring the rights of UK workers up to the standard that applies across Europe. Without the Directive, UK workers would have had less protection.

Equal Pay

Should we pat ourselves on the back for having legislated for equal pay before even joining the EEC? In short, no.

The right to equal pay was enshrined in Article 119 of the Treaty of Rome itself, which was signed in … 1957. That meant that we were going to have to legislate if we wanted to join.

Although the Equal Pay Act was enacted in 1970, it was not in force in 1973 when the UK joined the EEC. In fact, it did not come into force until December 1975. By then the Equal Pay Directive 75/117/EEC was in place. It required a substantial broadening of the right so that it covered cases where men and women were performing work of equal value. Again, Europe enhanced the rights of UK workers.

A number of subsequent decisions identified respects in which the Domestic legislation had failed properly to implement the European right. One example was the fact that the 1970 Act limited back pay claim to two years. That was held to be inconsistent with European Law and extended to 6 years.

Maternity

Couldn’t the EU be more generous in respect of Maternity Leave? Couldn’t it set a minimum rate of pay?

In 2010, the European Parliament (that bunch of ELECTED Eurocrats) voted in favour of a series of amendments to the Pregnant Workers Directive 92/85/EU. These provided for, amongst other things, 20 weeks’ maternity leave on full pay. MEP Nigel Farage described the vote as “foolishness”.

The proposals were blocked in Council. The UK (you’ll probably have guessed) opposed the amendments. Who went along to block them? Vote Leave’s very own Chris Grayling MP: "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);">https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...ainst-socially-regressive-maternity-proposals

The ECJ has on a number of occasions forced changes to the UK Law protecting pregnant women and those who take maternity leave against discrimination that would have been permissible as a matter of Domestic Law.

Wages

It is entirely correct that there is no EU minimum wage law. The EU does not have competence to legislate in this area (see Para 4.4 here: "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);">https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ropean-union-social-and-employment-policy.pdf).

It is true that not all Member States have national minimum wages. Some have sectoral minimum wages and others achieve the same result by way of widespread use of collective agreements.

We were late to the party. The French have had a statutory national minimum wage since 1950.

Discrimination

Since we joined the EEC in 1973 and the Sex Discrimination Act was not passed until 1975, a TARDIS seems to be required.

The meme has been very careful to avoid mentioning any of the wide variety of protections that are wholly European in origin such as those for part-time workers, fixed-term workers and agency workers. It also ignores the other protected characteristics added to discrimination law as a result of Europe. If you would like a full picture of “what Europe has done for us”, I recommend Michael Ford QC’s impressive and exhaustive account (link below).

[Edit: The article responds to the specific points made in the graphic circulating on the Internet. The scope of European influence on UK Employment Rights is much greater than the subset addressed here. If you are interested in a complete picture of what rights are under-pinned by European Law, I strongly recommend this opinion produced for the TUC by Michael Ford QC: "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);">https://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/Brexit Legal Opinion.pdf
 
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