Another new Brexit thread

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

?????? People elected a govt who pledged not to change them !!! You supposed remedy is as robust as a Johnson promise

I didn't vote for them but that was the result of the GE nonetheless. I suspect there was only one promise this govt feel bound to keep and so far they are. Obviously they are crooks and liars and if there is a better option then the nation is free to choose it at the next GE. BJ got in because of his clear and simple 'get brexit done message ' which gained popular more support than the message from the other options. Meanwhile we had as a nation been persuaded by his opponents within his own party that corbyn was a sort of Marx,Hitler/Gerry Adams hybrid.
You pays your money, you takes your choice as they say - we chose tory brexit. It was clear that BJ was what he is as London Mayor and we've been told since Cameron announced the referendum that Brexit would be a disaster yet the country chose both brexit and a Tory govt. None of this is a surprise or a secret, and it's a bit naive to expect a Tory government to uphold any form of regulation as it runs contrary to their free market principles.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

I didn't vote for them but that was the result of the GE nonetheless. I suspect there was only one promise this govt feel bound to keep and so far they are. Obviously they are crooks and liars and if there is a better option then the nation is free to choose it at the next GE. BJ got in because of his clear and simple 'get brexit done message ' which gained popular more support than the message from the other options. Meanwhile we had as a nation been persuaded by his opponents within his own party that corbyn was a sort of Marx,Hitler/Gerry Adams hybrid.
You pays your money, you takes your choice as they say - we chose tory brexit. It was clear that BJ was what he is as London Mayor and we've been told since Cameron announced the referendum that Brexit would be a disaster yet the country chose both brexit and a Tory govt. None of this is a surprise or a secret, and it's a bit naive to expect a Tory government to uphold any form of regulation as it runs contrary to their free market principles.

I see what you did there ....managed to get 'Tory Government' and 'Principles' in the same paragraph .... not a bad effort ... not grammatical wizardry .. but not a bad effort all the same. Well done!

 

[Vic]

Worth a repeat post here - he gets to food standards toward the end.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

What lower standards are we accepting

God forbid they take away our pot noodles and Turkey twizzlers.

 

[Vic]

Johnson at the "meeting" on Tuesday with business leaders used the word apathy re preparedness for Brexit. It's not certain whether he meant people in general or business in particular.

Why would people not be apathetic? Why would you need to prepare for Brexit when it's been done?

But businesses can't find customs agents to do the extra paperwork.

From Bloomberg:


On Tuesday’s conference call, it wasn’t just Johnson who annoyed the business leaders. At one point, Cabinet Office Minister Michael Gove — in charge of the preparations — likened Brexit to moving house. That, too, went down badly with executives hoping for clarity, with so many issues still unresolved.

Desperate for answers, the Food and Drink Federation put 170 detailed questions to ministers on issues like product labeling and customs paperwork. It still has no clarity. The British Chambers of Commerce has its own list of 35 questions on what happens next. So far, the government has answered just nine.

“Each one is like an onion,” the BCC’s Adam Marshall said. “The more you peel, the more you cry.”

 

[mcfc1632]

Stop creeping.

This has only just happened. But he never explains. He obfuscates. You try, if you think it has been explained, why is it a good idea to allow negotiators not to be restricted by an existing law? (It's part of the government line that these standards are already enshrined in law.)

In any case, it's news as she's chair (for the moment) of a body for high standards in farming, part funded by farmers who feel betrayed. She's biting the hard that feeds her. In case you need a bit of emphasis to assist in why it's an issue:

Farmers betrayed

Liz Webster, chair of campaign group Save British Farming (SBF), said she was shocked by Baroness Neville-Rolfe’s voting decisions.

“It’s more obfuscation and more proof that farmers are being betrayed,” said Ms Webster. “It’s clear that we [farmers] are being frogmarched into retirement.

“In my view, this seriously undermines faith in the Red Tractor assurance scheme.”

She added: “The British public has been misled time and time again by this government, particularly on Brexit and food standards.

“Why did the Conservatives promise in their 2019 election manifesto to uphold farmers’ standards if they have no intention to do so?”

A farming industry leader, who did not want to be named, said: “This is quite worrying. There are quite a few farmers struggling with confidence in Red Tractor at the moment. This appears to confirm some fears.”

Do you think that I have the time or interest to reply to all your posts that show that you do not understand even the basics of managing negotiations.

I read your post - I read the article - and I commented that what she said made clear sense. That is my opinion and I have told you why I choose not to get into detailed exchanges with you.

On this topic @blueinsa as explained sufficient for you to gain an understanding if you were open to doing so

 

[Vic]

Do you think that I have the time or interest to reply to all your posts that show that you do not understand even the basics of managing negotiations.

I read your post - I read the article - and I commented that what she said made clear sense. That is my opinion and I have told you why I choose not to get into detailed exchanges with you.

On this topic @blueinsa as explained sufficient for you to gain an understanding if you were open to doing so

You have plenty of time. Mostly spent saying at length why you can't answer simple questions.

 

[Blue Hefner]

It’s a shame Brexit didn’t happen 2 years ago. If it had there’s no way Rodri would have got a work permit.....

 

[mcfc1632]

It means exactly what she said it means.

We dont go into a negotiation with our hands tied in such a way as to give the EU any sort of advantage. It doesn't nor will it mean that standards will be abandoned. Its proof that post brexit, standards will be what we have decided they are and given we have the Red Tractor Scheme and have for a long time im not worried that we will be suddenly forced to eat shit Vic.

Meanwhile the EU now realise that the days of sitting opposite with a smirk knowing we dont really mean what we are saying are well and truly over. What we agree to or dont will be 100% our decision.

Your comment: "Meanwhile the EU now realise that the days of sitting opposite with a smirk knowing we dont really mean what we are saying are well and truly over......."

Made me think about an interesting article that I have just read about the 'events of last week' with regard to the stances of the 2 teams and what each were/are seeking to achieve:

Brexit: Caution and hope as talks enter decisive phase

www.rte.ie

I thought that this offered a quite insightful summary/commentary on the negotiations - and given the source it could hardly be seen to e biased towards the UK/Leave camp.

Probably a bit long - but, for those that have not been able to grasp what was going on last week it would be helpful. It even provided some interesting comments on the topic of fishing that would help the penny drop for some.

 

[mcfc1632]

Didn't we legislate to take away any possibility of extending transition (even though we'd lost nearly a year of the original period)? I'm sure you didn't want that on the table.

I actually think you're now Brexit deaf and can't actually hear anything else.

In a world of complexity, I ask one simple question: is the government going to negotiate to allow imports of food produced to standards lower than food produced on UK farms?

Then the one you don't want to answer.
If that is not negotiable (as the government says) why is someone who is paid to promote high UK farm standards saying that UK negotiators should be free to ignore UK law on high standards?

That ended up being a disappointing post - after it initially (the bit I have bolded) - got my hopes up that the penny at dropped at last.

The important thing at the moment - and should have been for 4 years - is for the UK parliament to seek opportunities to take actions that support the UK's negotiating team - and, of course, absolutely not take actions that undermine the UK's negotiating team and support the EUs. You need to try and get your head around that I suggest.

The example that you give is an excellent example of providing support to the UK's negotiating team. The EU will have been dismayed - a key tactic for them is to drag things out and get to the last minutes before a deadline and then agree an extension - they would love to keep extending for years.

They spent the first months of the year seeking to get agreement on an extension and have only relatively recently had to face up to the fact the UK were not going to simply cave in. After the years of dealing with May/Robbins and watching Grieve and co undermining the UK at Westminster - this must be so disappointing for them.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Your comment: "Meanwhile the EU now realise that the days of sitting opposite with a smirk knowing we dont really mean what we are saying are well and truly over......."

Made me think about an interesting article that I have just read about the 'events of last week' with regard to the stances of the 2 teams and what each were/are seeking to achieve:

Brexit: Caution and hope as talks enter decisive phase

www.rte.ie

I thought that this offered a quite insightful summary/commentary on the negotiations - and given the source it could hardly be seen to e biased towards the UK/Leave camp.

Probably a bit long - but, for those that have not been able to grasp what was going on last week it would be helpful. It even provided some interesting comments on the topic of fishing that would help the penny drop for some.

Interesting article. It is interesting that much will be decided on the Spanish, French and Italian love of our seafood. It is our most significant bargaining chip and we seem to be playing it fairly smart. I have always thought that given good intentions on both sides there is a sensible deal to be done. We may still get to it as long as the grown ups keep Johnson away from things until the deal is done.

 

[west didsblue]

Interesting article. It is interesting that much will be decided on the Spanish, French and Italian love of our seafood. It is our most significant bargaining chip and we seem to be playing it fairly smart. I have always thought that given good intentions on both sides there is a sensible deal to be done. We may still get to it as long as the grown ups keep Johnson away from things until the deal is done.

I thought it helpfully explained the fact that it’s all about posturing and optics from our side, in order to give the government the opportunity to show how tough they’ve been. Getting Barnier to agree to discussing legal texts, to visit London, to deal with us as a sovereign country etc. No sign of any substantive concessions on either side just theatre for the gullible. I suspect the concessions will be kept fairly quiet and the implications of those concessions will be drip fed long after everyone’s lost interest.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I thought it helpfully explained the fact that it’s all about posturing and optics from our side, in order to give the government the opportunity to show how tough they’ve been. Getting Barnier to agree to discussing legal texts, to visit London, to deal with us as a sovereign country etc. No sign of any substantive concessions on either side just theatre for the gullible. I suspect the concessions will be kept fairly quiet and the implications of those concessions will be drip fed long after everyone’s lost interest.

thats not how I read it. You call it posturing, my reading is just relatively smart negotiation. time Will tell which one of us is proven correct. Getting the EU to discuss legal texts is good. I am more heartened now that we can get a reasonable deal in the next month than I have been the last 6 months.

 

[mcfc1632]

Interesting article. It is interesting that much will be decided on the Spanish, French and Italian love of our seafood. It is our most significant bargaining chip and we seem to be playing it fairly smart. I have always thought that given good intentions on both sides there is a sensible deal to be done. We may still get to it as long as the grown ups keep Johnson away from things until the deal is done.

Yes - I found the entire article quite balanced and provided some straight-forward discussion on what is likely going on. Getting the EU to start on the legal text is quite a positive outcome for the UK

There was not much on the fishing topic but I thought this section was interesting:

"However, the official adds: "Getting the texts on the level playing field, governance and fisheries - that will take a bit of time. That will touch on our interests as member states. That will be an interesting experience."

Ultimately, to the EU what matters now is what political choices the UK is prepared to make.

"Do you want to work with us on achieving high standards in the future?" says one diplomat. "Do you want to get a stable and sustainable agreement on fish, where you get market access in return for us keeping a large chunk of our current fishing rights? If it’s a political choice, solutions are in reach."

Some posters talk about how we don't eat certain fish - that fishing is such a small part of the economy and we only have a small fleet etc......

That bit highlighted leads onto why I think that the best outcome for the UK is a deal that agrees a 3 - 5 year period of transition for the EU fleets to enjoy exactly the same access as they have now.

The words from the article speak of a deal where we get more quotas and the EU less - that is less good for us as it suggest an actual deal. That said - you can see that the subject of fishing is more important than some have realised - because here there is a suggestion of the EU trading some level of access to the SM in return

But that can be discussed more - otherwise this will turn into a long post

BTW - you have my full agreement on your view: "We may still get to it as long as the grown ups keep Johnson away from things until the deal is done."

 

[bluethrunthru]

Brexit Ultra's - Biden wins and your No Deal ambitions are dropped - Johnson is an opportunistic liar.............who knew?

Johnson will wait for US election result before no-deal Brexit decision

Former UK envoy to the EU says prime minister will think ‘history was going his way’ if Donald Trump is re-elected

www.theguardian.com

 

[west didsblue]

thats not how I read it. You call it posturing, my reading is just relatively smart negotiation. time Will tell which one of us is proven correct. Getting the EU to discuss legal texts is good. I am more heartened now that we can get a reasonable deal in the next month than I have been the last 6 months.

Getting them to discuss legal texts is what us necessary anyway and not the result of smart negotiating. Without those discussions a deal would not be possible so it was inevitable that it would happen unless we really want No Deal.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Brexit Ultra's - Biden wins and your No Deal ambitions are dropped - Johnson is an opportunistic liar.............who knew?

Johnson will wait for US election result before no-deal Brexit decision

Former UK envoy to the EU says prime minister will think ‘history was going his way’ if Donald Trump is re-elected

www.theguardian.com

We've already been informed by Remainers that a us trade deal would be of no consequence other than selling out the NHS and importing food horrors, so surely Biden is good news for Brexit?

 

[west didsblue]

Brexit Ultra's - Biden wins and your No Deal ambitions are dropped - Johnson is an opportunistic liar.............who knew?

Johnson will wait for US election result before no-deal Brexit decision

Former UK envoy to the EU says prime minister will think ‘history was going his way’ if Donald Trump is re-elected

www.theguardian.com

If Trump wins, relying on him to deliver a favourable deal that would make an EU deal unimportant is a ludicrously foolish strategy.

 

[mcfc1632]

thats not how I read it. You call it posturing, my reading is just relatively smart negotiation. time Will tell which one of us is proven correct. Getting the EU to discuss legal texts is good. I am more heartened now that we can get a reasonable deal in the next month than I have been the last 6 months.

Indeed - the EU will have been very keen to sort out their 3 key areas before commencing working on the legal texts. That they have started - and especially that they have agreed to start after the events of last week indicates quite a bit -and all generally good for the UK

I am not suggesting that the UK are in some strong position or that the EU are caving in - I never have. I recognise that the UK are in the weaker negotiating position - which is why I was so livid that it was made worse during 2016-2019.

Whilst generally passionate about Leaving, I have a significant interest in observing how the negotiations unfold. I have been dismayed to see the professional team Barnier put together facing off against the (worse than) amateurs the UK deployed - for the good of the UK we should all be pleased that we seem to now be represented by some skilled individuals - FFS their challenge is hard enough.

I think that you are right to be heartened about the prospects of a deal - that the work on legal texts has begun speaks well to the prospects of that outcome. I was/ and am definitely in the camp of preferring No-Deal over 'inappropriate levels of' EU controls of UK policy making. That said - I prefer a deal if the levels are not 'overly-inappropriate'

We shall see - but I am more encouraged tonight

 

[mcfc1632]

Getting them to discuss legal texts is what us necessary anyway and not the result of smart negotiating. Without those discussions a deal would not be possible so it was inevitable that it would happen unless we really want No Deal.

Sorry - you simply seem to not understand negotiations

The EU would not have wanted to start on the legal texts without the contentious areas settled - that is just straight-forward if you have an understanding of negotiations.

In the scheme of things - this is actually good news for the UK and there is actually no credible way that can challenged

Another piece of news to give @Saddleworth2 more positivity is:

EU Brexit negotiators to extend London visit: Sunday Telegraph

EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier is planning to extend his visit to London until Wednesday amid cautious optimism over the progress of post-Brexit trade talks with Britain, the Sunday Telegraph reported.

www.reuters.com