You do confuse yourself
It was during their term that the WA was drafted and therefore loaded to be pro-EU
It is a simple - if inconvenient - truth
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It was during their term that the WA was drafted and therefore loaded to be pro-EU
It is a simple - if inconvenient - truth
bluethrunthru
Well-Known Member
You blame it all on them - however I can see why it suits your narrative going forward to start to change it.
Oh - I am fully aware of Pelosi's comments
As I posted earlier - there are very many posts from Remainers banging on about it - you reinforce the truth of my comment
You are rambling - the authorship of the WA is clear
I have no idea of the meaning of the 2nd part of your post
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese
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I'd have thought rather than the EU having an automatic right to fish in UK waters, us agreeing to some sort of periodically renewable specified amount of access and them agreeing to something we'd like in return would be the adult way to go about things? Them wanting access to the ex-wives fanny is about as sensible as us wanting our EU cake after brexit - let the mouthpieces of the EU and the Daily Mail etc spout their respective bile and meanwhile I'm sure these conversations (negotiations) will be taking place.
bluethrunthru
Well-Known Member
Sorry? I thought their WA was ripped up and Johnson renegotiated a fantastic new oven ready WA that was totally different to the first one hence all those Brexit Ultra's from JRM to French Mark were trumpeting it from the roof tops as something Johnson had won .... they won a GE on that basis. You seem to think the WA agreed was the original one not the later oven ready one.
Again - that you cannot understand something simple is on you - not me
Again - I have told you before why I will not engage with you. You will get to understand the position on fishing as others - such as @Saddleworth2 discuss it - people that I am happy to engage with.
Again - you consider the topic in too limited a fashion - the size of our fleet, the %age of our economy, out quotas etc. Your desire to run the Brexit and the UK down apparently blinds you to wider consideration
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Well yes, that has been the EU approach.
In this post you just show either your utter lack of understanding or desire to ignore the obvious as you try to be what you think is clever
I am assuming that the extent that you do so in this post is deliberate rather than a genuine reflection of your knowledge
If you really do think that the WA was significantly different to what was dictated to Robbins/May by the EU (minus the poisonous unfettered backstop) - then there is no point wasting effort discussing it with you
If you are being deliberately disingenuous simply in an attempt to try and be clever - then there is no point wasting effort discussing it with you
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We might as well start the US trade deal thread now.
Favourable to whom? UK farmers or US farmers?
I'll be on the side of UK farmers who think we should have a red line and say we will not have lower standards on imports. If I don't understand why giving that up as a negotiating starting point is stupid, I'll be in very good company - significantly lots of rural Tory voters. And most big supermarkets. And the RSPCA. In fact most people.
Anyway, the Tory peer chair of Red Tractor is quitting after voting against the Lords amendment.
Red Tractor chair to quit after food standards fiasco - Farmers Weekly
Red Tractor chair Lucy Neville-Rolfe is to stand down after opposing measures to protect British farmers against substandard food imports. Baroness
www.fwi.co.uk
The red tractor line.
So they were all lying about what a great new deal Johnson had got?
Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
bluethrunthru
Well-Known Member
I was referring to the platform upon which Johnson stood claiming it was a brilliant new oven ready deal and all you suckers believed him - nobody bothered to read it - IDS actually encouraged MP's not to bother reading it - and so they were elected on a false premise that 9 months later they were - comically - whining it was not fit for purpose.
Oh and if you genuinely believe believe the WA was a document simply dictated by the EU then you are really down and ant-EU warren hole and yeah I agree - you're a waste of effort.
Yep - in that article from yesterday it was explained quite well:
"..........There is a further sensitivity for the UK in these negotiations when it comes to legal texts. When Theresa May negotiated the Withdrawal Agreement, she was obliged to work off the EU’s draft as the baseline legal text. That’s because it was an "EU" treaty since it flowed from Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty.
While the Withdrawal Agreement was jointly drafted in the end, in reality it was an uphill struggle for the UK to forge it in its own image."
It was essentially an EU drafted artefact - that Robbins had no capability to affect because he was/is neither a negotiator or a legal professional with the relevant experience. I slag Robbins off not because of 'him' - more for what he represents - some rank amateur put in to face off against Barnier and his team of professionals - that was May's fault.
The WA signed by Johnson was little different from the one that Robbins had 'negotiated'. The key difference was the removal of the unfettered backstop - because key people realised, as I had said often, how ruinous that would be.
Johnson just bullshitted - increasingly I believe because of a mixture of a) a lack of understanding of some of the provisions and b) a callous intention - following the GE - to dump the PD and parts of the WA
But in this set of exchanges what I find disingenuous is people seeking to portray that the Johnson oven-ready deal was the result of major renegotiations of the WA - when they either know better - or don't know enough to offer a credible view
Don't know who you are talking about here - but you point the comment at me and I certainly did not believe that
You are just so blinded by bile and hatred that you crash around the political threads dropping in acidic comments wherever you see an opportunity and - on this thread - simply expose your lack of understanding
Which is evidenced by your last comment - read the bit that I have just quoted from the article of yesterday:
""..........There is a further sensitivity for the UK in these negotiations when it comes to legal texts. When Theresa May negotiated the Withdrawal Agreement, she was obliged to work off the EU’s draft as the baseline legal text. That’s because it was an "EU" treaty since it flowed from Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty....."
- and try and do so with some objectivity
Who thinks it was a major renegotiation? We knew they were lying, you knew they were lying, they knew they were lying (except maybe IDS and his ilk who may be lying about how they didn't realise it wasn't such a good deal as they lyingly said it was at the time).
As for being an EU draft, if they'd waited for a UK draft we might still be in the EU.
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Rascal
El Presidente
The one undisputable truth in all of this is that the Tories have made a huge fucking mess of it. The lies have encouraged xenophobic behaviour and division, the untruths have caused bewilderment and the bluster has caused blunders. The Government typically of a Johnson led anything have been unprepared, complacent and have lied. A Govt. minister has just been on Ridge talking again about an Australia type deal, a Canada type deal, its all smoke and mirrors is being done to hide their incompetence. They don't have a clue, they know they are in a corner and need to find a way out and telling more lies to cover the lies they have already told is not the answer. I would rather they were truthful and stood up and said "look everyone, we have made a right bollox of all this, we are sorry, you the electorate voted to leave and we have let you down because we are a bunch of incompetent fuckwits and we promise we will stop lying and tell you the truth. The truth will hurt us and it will hurt you too, but you voted for it and we have to sort it out. So we will stop playing these silly games and start acting like grown ups and what ever will be will be and if you think we are all cunts then so be it. Vote us out at the next election. We are leaving though as democracy has to be honoured"
The more this charade goes on the more damage it is doing to our reputation as a nation, the more extremism gains traction and the greater the divisions grow, it has to be stopped for the good of the nation. So leave with no deal, wish the EU well and thank them for being so patient with a bunch of spoilt children who want to eat there cake and have it. The desperation of some to get a deal says to me that they have realised that without a deal they know that a Socialist state becomes a real possibility and the halfwits who wanted a neo-liberal wonderland of low regulation and free market utopianism have never considered that possibility. They now realise how stupid they have been, all this posturing and British exceptionalism may might just have all been in vain. Imagine how funny it would be for the ERG nutjobs to wake up and realise they are living in a true Socialist state and there pettiness and intractability has caused it.
The more this charade goes on the more damage it is doing to our reputation as a nation, the more extremism gains traction and the greater the divisions grow, it has to be stopped for the good of the nation. So leave with no deal, wish the EU well and thank them for being so patient with a bunch of spoilt children who want to eat there cake and have it. The desperation of some to get a deal says to me that they have realised that without a deal they know that a Socialist state becomes a real possibility and the halfwits who wanted a neo-liberal wonderland of low regulation and free market utopianism have never considered that possibility. They now realise how stupid they have been, all this posturing and British exceptionalism may might just have all been in vain. Imagine how funny it would be for the ERG nutjobs to wake up and realise they are living in a true Socialist state and there pettiness and intractability has caused it.
Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
Sounds like you both agree. They were lying to the great british people so they could get re-elected with a majority. Many understood this and voted for them anyway. Some didn't but now they do understand, they aren't arsed anyway. A number will feel they have been hoodwinked.
In terms of the negotiation. Judge it on the deal we finalise and that alone. All the nonsense over the last few weeks coming from the UK side has had one purpose, to unsettle and shock the EU negotiators out of complacency. Time will tell but indications are that it is working. If Johnson comes out of this with a reasonable FTA, a deal on fishing that transitions over a few years to an improved position and minimal EU governance over what the UK does, he will have delivered what the vast majority of his supporters want and fair play if he achieves that. Of course that is still not a shoe in but I do detect a level of fatigue on the EU side and they will want this done and put to bed.
I for one hope that is the outcome as we cannot have the misery of a no deal on top of this awful pandemic.
You forget the misery of a deal as we will still have the cost and delays of customs red tape.
Saddleworth2
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